Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Goyim Defense League


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. -- RoySmith (talk) 01:15, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Goyim Defense League

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I previously moved this article to draftspace to encourage development. However, the article's creator moved it back again saying completed draft. I don't feel comfortable moving this back to draftspace a second time.

After reading the sources and doing preliminary research, this hate group does not seem like a it meets Notability (organizations and companies).

Several citations of the first few citations are just links to the hate group's social media accounts. The remaining references are reliable, but the majority of those are from Right Wing Watch, ADL, Task and Purpose, or similar sources which we traditionally don't use to establish notability. Pretty much the rest of the citations are decent WP:RS, but it almost always is for just one or two events (that concern either Brett Favre or Soulja Boy).

I actually think a joint-biography for Patrick Little, Jon Minadeo, and Adam Green (the three neo-nazis who compose it) would be a good fit under this article title. However, I don't think the article in its current state has much (if any) useable prose for that task. Therefore, I suggest deletion. &#8211; MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 23:29, 3 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep - this groups trolling of the aforementioned celebrities got a lot of media attention across the world, including New York Times, Washington Post, CBS News, etc. Aside from that the activities of Little (who is associated with the group) garned a lot of media attention when he was running for election and its probably better to have him mentioned in this article rather than making a stand-alone biography. The Middle East Media Research Institute now lists and tracks it as one of the notable anti-Jewish online hate groups. Benjiphillips (talk) 23:36, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
 * You are correct that Little would be better as a redirect to this page than a stand-alone biography. However, the concern I have is related to WP:BLP1E because coverage should generally be WP:LASTING. I will admit that neither of those policies are specific to WP:NGROUP, and this is a rather borderline case. &#8211; MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 23:43, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
 * The Alexa rankings for all the other groups on the MEMRI page that have a WP article are: Daily Stormer 25.6k, The Right Stuff 61.7k, Stormfront 77.8k, American Renaissance 113.5k, National Vanguard 216.1k; of the groups that only have a redirect: Red Ice TV 227.3k; Vanguard News Network 976.7k, Fash The Nation 1,332.8k; Goyim Defense League is at 2,366.8k (Aryan Nations has an obscure site called Aryan Nations Reborn that polls at 7,044.7k - but the parent group has been around since the 1970s.) StonyBrook (talk) 18:28, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Discrimination-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 00:05, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Websites-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 01:05, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Internet-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 01:05, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 01:05, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 01:07, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. &#8211;  MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 01:30, 4 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Note that news coverage is limited to a brief flurry in early December 2018, all along the lines of Brett Favre 'sickened' after being tricked into recording anti-Semitic video for white supremacists.E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:00, 4 August 2019 (UTC) Note to ivoters and closing administrator: E.M.Gregory is a blocked sock. Lightburst (talk) 12:11, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:NOTPROMO and WP:LASTING. Most refs for this group are primary links, and passing mention of them and the non-notable politician during a flash of coverage received by fooling a few celebs into plugging them. WP covers notable groups but does not confer notability on the relatively unknown. StonyBrook (talk) 18:47, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Which part of NOTPROMO would be relevant? The article just documents exactly what the media has said about them. The LASTING thing is a borderline case I think... there are two separate incidents involving them last year for which they got mass media attention: Patrick Little's anti-Jewish congress campaign in California (where he was polling as second for some time) and then the online trolling of the celebrities. The Middle East Media Research Institute watchdog report which tracks groups like this and has included the GDL is from March 2019 so they would appear to be still active and noted on by such organisations after these specific incidents. At this stage it may be too early to tell whether they have a lasting notability, so this isn't a particularly strong rationale IMO. Benjiphillips (talk) 12:22, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
 * The part that says Wikipedia articles about a company or organization are not an extension of their website or other social media marketing efforts. WP:NOTDIRECTORY of all websites. Since only 21% of the orgs on MEMRI have a WP article, and only 6% have redirects, but the vast majority (69%) have nothing, that indicates that being listed there is not an automatic indication of notability. It might grow someday in popularity but WP:NOTCRYSTALBALL. Writing an article about a relatively unknown website is part of advocacy and advertising. The references about Little's senate campaign have nothing to do with this article, which is about a group of internet trolls, and do nothing to bolster it. The incident with Brett Favre was a widely reported news item at the time, but WP:NOTNEWSPAPER. Outside of the trolling incidents, no 3rd-party sources have shown any lasting interest. StonyBrook (talk) 14:35, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Writing an article about an relatively unknown website is also a part of the learning experience for new users. It's not like this article says they're good people or anything. It just follows the RS to the best Benji was able to. &#8211; MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 14:49, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I think the article is neutral and well-written, and whether or not they are good people has nothing to do with anything. The sole issue is whether this article reports on or creates the notability. I believe in this case it is the latter. StonyBrook (talk) 15:35, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
 * [Thank you for the ping] With the last thing you said, Agree to disagree there then. &#8211;  MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 15:44, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with in part here. I don't see anything promotional about this article (maybe some minor WP:PEACOCK which happens with any new user) . This really is a case of LASTING/ORG1E rather than semi-promotional edits.  &#8211;  MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 14:46, 7 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete, I added it to List of neo-Nazi organizations. RobDuch (talk·contribs) 22:41, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete per the above. A minor mention can be made in another article.  This is unnecessary and simply assists in the trolling. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:24, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:NOTPROMO and WP:LASTING. --SalmanZ (talk) 22:00, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete - Per nom. Doesn't meet notability. Barca (talk) 22:45, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete. As basically an ORG1E (or HATE1E?). They pulled a stunt in December 2018. Got covered. Haven't had much coverage otherwise at all. The event itself (tricking celebrities into making recordings) doesn't quite pass NEVENT (as it doesn't have CONTINUECOVERAGE). Add to all the above that we generally want strong independent sourcing for WP:FRINGE topics... And it's a delete. Icewhiz (talk) 16:55, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
 * someone should really make HATE1E a thing. That's pretty clever! &#8211; MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 18:21, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:NOTPROMO and WP:LASTING. Jayjg (talk) 18:30, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
 * WP:SNOW Delete Icewhiz's ORG1E quip says it perfectly.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:42, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete on account of subject lacking verifiably supported notability as an organization. Let me add a little comment here. It's a little disheartening to see so many irrelevant policies or guidelines invoked in this AfD discussion. The accusation of the contested text having a promotional nature is clearly unfounded; WP:LASTING is about events and not organizations (and, as a side note, the 2018 stunt did have consequences, with plenty of media attention focused on instigators and victims, with a lot of follow up); Alexa rankings are irrelevant as a criterion for inclusion in Wikipedia; and so on. And I hope the discussion has not been affected by how participants view the subject. -The Gnome (talk) 06:21, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
 * In all fairness, I did say neither WP:LASTING or WP:BLP1E were specific to WP:NORG above. I'm just not as articulate as you. &#8211;  MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 07:36, 9 August 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.