Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Grace Frick


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Although there are more commenters recommending keeping this article, I don't find much policy-based strength in the arguments. With the addition of the potentially inappropriate canvassing for keeping the article, the discussion may be artificially skewed to that point of view. -- Ed (Edgar181) 19:28, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Grace Frick

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Grace Frick appears to be known solely for her association with Marguerite Yourcenar. WP:INHERITED applies here. All three references are about Yourcenar, not Frick who is mentioned only in context of the relationship with her. I cannot find sufficient evidence that Frick meets WP:PROF to establish notability on her own. A redirect to the article on Yourcenar may be a suitable alternative to deletion. Deli nk (talk) 17:34, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. ʍaɦʋɛօtʍ (talk) 18:27, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. ʍaɦʋɛօtʍ (talk) 18:27, 20 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Delete Not notable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abrasapuentes (talk • contribs) 21:33, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep or Redirect to Marguerite Yourcenar. No independent notability. No pass of WP:Prof or WP:GNG, WP:NOTINHERITED.Xxanthippe (talk) 00:19, 21 September 2017 (UTC).
 * Keep Frick was the first dean Hartford College for Women and it's remembered for being one of the reason the college survived during the World War II times. Other than that she taught in the more important women colleges in the United States and was the translator of Yourcenar's books in English. I improved the article.


 * 1. The person's research has had a significant impact in their scholarly discipline, broadly construed, as demonstrated by independent reliable sources. From the University of Hartford Archives Blog: "Frick was faced with the impact of World War II which eventually reinforced the need for women’s education. Women stepped into careers formerly open primarily to men and took over family businesses as men departed for service in the armed forces. Although enrollment at the college dropped during the war, the trustees felt that they needed to keep the college afloat for the duration. They predicted that the next generations of women would increasingly expect education of a high caliber after learning during the war that they could handle professions and trades formerly viewed as masculine."
 * 2. The person has received a highly prestigious academic award or honor at a national or international level.
 * 3. The person is or has been an elected member of a highly selective and prestigious scholarly society or association (e.g., a National Academy of Sciences or the Royal Society) or a fellow of a major scholarly society which reserves fellow status as a highly selective honor (e.g., Fellow of the IEEE).[2]
 * 4. The person's academic work has made a significant impact in the area of higher education, affecting a substantial number of academic institutions. From the University of Hartford Archives Blog: "The first two administrators of the college had been exceptional scholars but had now moved on to careers focusing on teaching in the case of Randall and research and translation in the case of Frick. Although these first two deans had served very briefly, the administrator who followed Grace Frick would be the woman who most fully defined Hartford College for Women."
 * 5. The person holds or has held a named chair appointment or distinguished professor appointment at a major institution of higher education and research (or an equivalent position in countries where named chairs are uncommon). From the University of Hartford Archives Blog: Grace Frick became the second dean of Hartford Junior College in 1940. She taught English at HJC in addition to fulfilling her administrative duties. She had taught previously at Stephens Junior College for Women at Columbia, Mo., and at Barnard College of Colombia University before coming to HJC. Frick initially left Hartford College for Women for a teaching position at Connecticut College for Women in New London, Conn. in 1943."
 * 6. The person has held a highest-level elected or appointed administrative post at a major academic institution or major academic society. From the University of Hartford Archives Blog: "Grace Frick became the second dean of Hartford Junior College in 1940."
 * 7. The person has had a substantial impact outside academia in their academic capacity. From the University of Hartford Archives Blog: "The first two administrators of the college had been exceptional scholars but had now moved on to careers focusing on teaching in the case of Randall and research and translation in the case of Frick. Although these first two deans had served very briefly, the administrator who followed Grace Frick would be the woman who most fully defined Hartford College for Women."
 * 8. The person is or has been the head or chief editor of a major, well-established academic journal in their subject area.
 * 9. The person is in a field of literature (e.g., writer or poet) or the fine arts (e.g., musician, composer, artist), and meets the standards for notability in that art, such as WP:CREATIVE or WP:MUSIC. From In Translation: Translators on Their Work and What It Means: "She is also rembered for being the translator of "Memoirs of Hadrian", "Coup de Grace" and "The Abess". Until Frick's death, Yourcenar allowed only her to translate her books." Elisa.rolle (talk) 21:02, 21 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep: academic dean at precursor of Hartford College for Women suffices for notability; I've added it to lead for clarity. Pam  D  21:41, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Academic dean' does nor satisfy any of the WP:Prof criteria. Xxanthippe (talk) 22:42, 21 September 2017 (UTC).
 * Point 6 of WP:Prof: The person has held a highest-level elected or appointed administrative post at a major academic institution or major academic society. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elisa.rolle (talk • contribs)
 * Hartford College for Women, like most colleges, does not qualify as a major academic institution, so WP:Prof is not passed. However, work as a sometime translator of the awesome Marguerite Yourcenar, particularly of The Memoirs of Hadrian, does confer some notability, and I have altered my vote according to WP:Author, among which I include translators, as translators usually get a raw deal on Wikipedia and elsewhere. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:29, 23 September 2017 (UTC).


 * Keep The current references in the article show that she passes the notablity test. Pichpich (talk) 22:38, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
 * which references? Xxanthippe (talk) 22:43, 21 September 2017 (UTC).

These sources are mostly about Marguerite Yourcenar and justify a redirect rather than a delete. The only source directly about Frick is a routine local obituary. Xxanthippe (talk) 23:10, 21 September 2017 (UTC).
 * Other than the obituary that is not routine being in a major newspaper (The Hartford Courant is the largest daily newspaper in the U.S. state of Connecticut), there is the Hartford College Blog: "Second Dean, Grace Frick 1940-43. A scholar of French language and literature, Grace Frick became the second dean of Hartford Junior College in 1940. She taught English at HJC in addition to fulfilling her administrative duties. A native of Kansas City, Mo., she was a 1925 graduate of Wellesley College. She received an master's from Wellesley two years later. Frick completed additional academic work at both Yale and the University of Kansas. She had taught previously at Stephens Junior College for Women at Columbia, Mo., and at Barnard College of Colombia University before coming to HJC. Frick was faced with the impact of World War II which eventually reinforced the need for women’s education. Women stepped into careers formerly open primarily to men and took over family businesses as men departed for service in the armed forces. Although enrollment at the college dropped during the war, the trustees felt that they needed to keep the college afloat for the duration. They predicted that the next generations of women would increasingly expect education of a high caliber after learning during the war that they could handle professions and trades formerly viewed as masculine. Today Grace Frick is best known because of her lifelong relationship with Belgian writer Marguerite Yourcenar. The two first met in 1937 in Paris. Later, while Frick was taking courses at Yale in New Haven, Conn., Yourcenar came to the United States to avoid the disruptions in Europe caused by the war. The two began to share an apartment in 1939 while Frick was teaching at Barnard. Yourcenar later joined Frick in Hartford. Unlike Dean Randall, Grace Frick did not live on campus. She and Yourcenar lived together in an apartment building at 549 Prospect Ave. in West Hartford and kept the apartment until April 1951. Yourcenar taught at Hartford Junior College beginning in1941, teaching French literature and art history for free. The two women were active in the intellectual and artistic circles in Hartford during their years of residence. Youcenar also commuted to Bronxville, N. Y. during this period to teach at Sarah Lawrence College. Frick initially left Hartford College for Women for a teaching position at Connecticut College for Women in New London, Conn. in 1943. Frick became Yourcenar’s translator and continued in that role until her own death. The two finally settled in 1950 at Mount Desert Island in Maine. Grace Frick died in 1979. The first two administrators of the college had been exceptional scholars but had now moved on to careers focusing on teaching in the case of Randall and research and translation in the case of Frick. Although these first two deans had served very briefly, the administrator who followed Grace Frick would be the woman who most fully defined Hartford College for Women."


 * Keep There is no requirement that information about Frick must be separate from Yourcenar or anyone else..."does not need to be the main topic of the source material". There is also no requirement that any biography meet alternative PROF standards, merely GNG. However, as is pointed out above, she meets criteria #6. There are multiple books which discuss the two women:, , , , , . Sufficient reliable sources over time to provide independent verification of subject's biography without completing original research. Clearly meets GNG. SusunW (talk) 00:12, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 03:19, 22 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep. The sources mentioned clearly show she was notable as an educator. Simply because she translated Yourcenar does not deprive her of notability, quite the contrary.--Ipigott (talk) 10:50, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep. Leading an institution of higher education is a notable accomplishment, and her other academic/literary work contributes to her general notability. The article is also sourced well and there's obviously no issue of self-promotion. -- Penny Richards (talk) 21:11, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep. Ludicrous nomination. The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 07:42, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
 * The nomination was not ludicrous. The case is borderline and fails WP:Prof, probably fails WP:GNG but possibly might scrape through a suitable interpreted WP:Author as I have discussed above. Xxanthippe (talk) 22:23, 23 September 2017 (UTC).


 * Merge or redirect. Even with everything written above, I'm having a hard time seeing how notability is established independent of Marguerite Yourcenar.  Claims such as "Leading an institution of higher education", don't even seem to be true.  If you have to resort to distortion to make the case, I don't think there is a strong case to make.  The role of dean (an administrator of a subunit of an organization) at Hartford Junior College does not appear to be significant.  Edgeweyes (talk) 20:55, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
 * You have the wrong college. She led the Hartford College for Women. And it was a leading institution: "HCW was one of the first colleges in the country to offer a major in Women's Studies. The program was cited as one of the most progressive programs in the field by the New England Women's Studies Association due to its special emphasis on the relationship between gender, race, and class." Point 6 of WP:PROF is proven. Elisa.rolle (talk) 23:09, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Two-year colleges are never major institutions, which require, at least, a significant international research presence. Xxanthippe (talk) 00:15, 24 September 2017 (UTC).
 * Not sure where there is the rule that "Two-year colleges are never major institutions", anyway, "Hartford College for Women (HCW) played an important part in the history of higher education for women in the US and was one of the finest providers of single sex education in its day. The college began as "Mt. Holyoke in Hartford" to provide the first two years of an academically challenging curriculum to young women who could not afford to attend a four year residential college." more at the website if you want to read: Elisa.rolle (talk) 00:29, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
 * That issue is best discussed on the talk pages of WP:Prof. Instead of barrel-scraping you might do better to address the one area of the BIO that is most likely to lead to notability-the translations of the illustrious author Marguerite Yourcenar. These receive a minimum of attention in the article, but will be the one thing Frick is remembered for. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:53, 24 September 2017 (UTC).
 * The whole reason this article was brought to AfD is because she was associated with Yourcenar, someone more notable than herself, and that always causes our editors to think that less-notable means not-notable. It's a regular problem here with somewhat-famous women who marry famous men, and it's the same issue this time regardless of the fact that her partner was also a woman. So you are asking the article to emphasize the parts that prompted the deletion, rather than the parts that make her independently notable (assuming she is). —David Eppstein (talk) 04:23, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
 * The point I see as being important is that Frick was not just the partner of a more famous woman (which would be non-notable according to WP:Not inherited), but acted creatively as the successful translator of an important writer. It is irrelevant whether the person whose books she translated was her partner or not. I think the reason that the article was taken to AfD was that the article was not clearly enough written to emphasize this crucial point but buried it under a bog of irrelevancies about the worthy but routine teaching appointments she held. Xxanthippe (talk) 06:26, 24 September 2017 (UTC).
 * I think everyone is forgetting what I wrote in the first comment. This article is not mine but when I saw it was in AfD I improved the article. Before my improvements the whole article consisted of "Grace Frick (12 January 1903 – 18 November 1979) was an American English professor, translator, and researcher, most commonly for French author Marguerite Yourcenar, her lifelong partner. Grace Frick was born in Kansas. Frick worked on a dissertation at Yale University, starting in 1937, the same year she met Yourcenar." Now the article is more than suitable to prove her notability, and if someone wants to improve it more, they are more than welcome. Elisa.rolle (talk) 08:42, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I think the stub was better before you worked on it and obfuscated the main reason for notability. However, the article has been improved since then and is now in a tolerable state. After the article was nominated for AfD you sought help at the WiR talk page, ignoring the recommendation at WP:Canvassing which advises Note: It is good practice to leave a note at the discussion itself about notifications which have been made. As expected, pile-on Keeps emerged rapidly. Some were content-free, some seemed absent of logical argument, some were nothing more than WP:ILIKEIT, some argued, contrary to established WP:Prof policy, that all Deans of Junior Colleges are automatically notable. None of them dealt with the central issue for the notability of the biography, the work done as a translator. Xxanthippe (talk) 11:42, 25 September 2017 (UTC).
 * If moving up a sentence adding a "most" and inverting the lead is making it better, I'm more than fine with it. Elisa.rolle (talk) 12:00, 25 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.