Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Granite Hotel


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep.  Wifione  Message 06:38, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Granite Hotel

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individual episode of a cartoon series, no RS references, no notability, left talk message two months ago asking for sources/expansion, with no result. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:58, 8 March 2012 (UTC)


 * keep This animated short film is notable per NOTFILM (significant involvement of several notable persons: Jack Mercer, Max Fleischer, Dave Fleischer and Adolph Zukor) --Bensin (talk) 18:09, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Are these people involved only in this particular episode, or the entire series? In either case, these facts would need to be backed up by WP:RS which is not the case in the article currently Gaijin42 (talk) 18:39, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Additionally, the actual criteria from notfilm is "The film features significant involvement (i.e. one of the most important roles in the making of the film) by a notable person and is a major part of his/her career. " and the part after the "AND" is not met in this case I think. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:52, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The film is notable regardless of the series. I suppose we could debate for a while what is a reliable source or not. I would argue that imdb combined with bcdb is reliable enough, unless someone knows of any reason to doubt the facts at the film's entries in this particular case. I did however also add two book sources I found. In short: This film, and I'm pretty certain I would argue that any film, from Fleischer Studios by Max and Dave Fleischer and distributed by Paramount Studios is notable. --Bensin (talk) 22:26, 8 March 2012 (UTC)


 * You did not answer my original question, are the notable individuals involved in the film, only involved in this episode, or is all episodes? Similarly, are the book references you added discussing this particular short, or the series in general? IMDB and BCDB are definitively NOT RS, as determined by innumerable consensuses and discussions. In any case, being included in such sources does nothing to establish notability.  You also did not address my previous statement regarding the policy you used for justification of notability, specifically the "and is a major part of his/her career" portion, which I think this case hinges upon. The default policy is WP:NOTINHERITED, so just the fact that they are involved in this film is not sufficient. I am more than willing to give the benefit o the doubt to the entire series (particularly considering your inclusion of the two book sources), but unless it can be shown that those sources are discussing this particular episode, or that all of these notable people were all special guest stars for only this episode (and other episodes did not have similar notable guest stars), then I think it is collective notability, and not notability of this particular short. Gaijin42 (talk) 22:34, 8 March 2012 (UTC)


 * hrm, mixed bag in looking at the book sources. TRex is talking about this specific episode, but has a one sentence inclusion "In Granite Hotel (1940) a sauropod turns into a prehistoric firefighter's vehicle". I am unable to get inside the other book to see what its ref is, if you have access, could you illuminate us? As it is, I think the T.Rex reference fails the "In Depth" restriction of notability. Gaijin42 (talk) 22:51, 8 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't know for certain if they were involved in only this film or all of the films in the series, but I think it's safe to say they were involved in all.
 * The book references are referring to this film in particular. If you search on Google for books '"granite hotel" fleischer' you can verify the sources.
 * Again, imdb combined with bcdb is reliable enough sources at least to establish that the film exists but also with some certainty who were involved in the process. If/when better sources become available they should be added to the article.
 * I would classify any artistic work released by a large studio and credited to either Fleischer-brother a major part of their career.
 * WP:NOTINHERITED is an essay and it clearly states at the top of the page that "Essays are not Wikipedia policies". It is nonetheless a very sound essay, but it also says "three of the notability guidelines, for books, films and music, do allow for inherited notability in certain circumstances".
 * If for no other reason, I believe that
 * involvement by Max and Dave Fleischer via Fleischer Studios
 * voice actor Jack Mercer in a starring role
 * distribution by the major studio Paramount
 * combined qualifies the article for inclusion. --Bensin (talk) 01:39, 9 March 2012 (UTC)


 * All of these things are reasons for the series to be notable to me, not this particular episode (with the exception of the two sources, but as stated, the one that I was able to confirm was just in passing) I think you and I are not going to be able to convince each other of our positions, ,so we will need to see if anyone else chimes in. Gaijin42 (talk) 02:18, 9 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Since the argument is valid for both this short film (I avoid calling it an "episode" so as to not confuse it with an episode of a TV series) as well as the series, my position stands firm. More opinions on the matter would be welcome. --Bensin (talk) 15:13, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions.  — Frankie (talk) 18:29, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions.  — Frankie (talk) 18:29, 9 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Weak keep &mdash; at least this topic is not of a TV series. WP:N is nothing more than a guideline, as well as other notable guidelines; per WP:V, this is truly a short film. Otherwise, strong merge to Stone Age Theatrical Cartoon Series. --George Ho (talk) 22:46, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I am unclear on your logic. re "otherwise merge", what is the criteria that leads to THIS otherwise THAT? Gaijin42 (talk) 15:09, 11 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep Appears to meet guidelines.♦ Dr. Blofeld  18:10, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.