Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Green Bay Packers home games in Milwaukee


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. BD2412 T 05:10, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Green Bay Packers home games in Milwaukee

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

After the completion of Articles for deletion/List of broadcasters for Green Bay Packers home games in Milwaukee, created this article. I immediately removed the portion of the new article that was copied and pasted from the now deleted List of broadcasters for Green Bay Packers home games in Milwaukee (see diff).

Regarding the topic at hand, the Green Bay Packers played a few home games in Milwaukee, Wisconsin for 60 years, primarily due to the fact that Green Bay, Wisconsin is a small market for an NFL team. Milwaukee provided a larger stadium and the ability to reach more people. However, after Lambeau Field was expanded in the 1990s, the need for Milwaukee games decreased, with all home games moving back to Lambeau Field in 1994. The team still draws a large number of fans and market share from the Milwaukee area.

I do not believe that the notability of the topic meets our WP:GNG, specifically lacking significant coverage about the specific topic as a whole (obviously a lot of sources mention or even discuss the fact that the Packers played in Milwaukee). Even if there is some notability about this subject, this information is already contained within numerous articles, none of which has become so big to necessitate a WP:CONTENTFORK into a new article. Further reinforcing this fact, BornonJune8, per their edit summary creating this article, copied text from Borchert Field, List of Green Bay Packers stadiums, Milwaukee Badgers, List of Green Bay Packers broadcasters, Sports in Milwaukee, Packers Radio Network, Milwaukee Mile, Marquette Stadium, and Milwaukee County Stadium.

Information about the Packers' time in Milwaukee should be properly covered in the following articles: History of the Green Bay Packers, List of Green Bay Packers stadiums, and Green Bay Packers, among a few others. A content fork on this topic is too specific to be justified. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk)  @ 16:02, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions.  « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 16:02, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Wisconsin-related deletion discussions. Lepricavark (talk) 16:22, 18 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep per my !vote at the broadcaster AfD, I believe that this topic could be notable and I would like to give the article creator more than just one day to construct an article. Lepricavark (talk) 16:20, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * , the article (and topic for that matter) can be summed up in a few sentences (see the 2nd paragraph of my nom). The article as it stands is primarily propped up my the List of stadiums section, which is sufficiently covered by List of Green Bay Packers stadiums. We don't need to duplicate a bunch of information to prop up a minor topic. There just isn't enough content to fill an article without significant fluff, and the relevant content can be covered sufficiently and more succinctly in other articles. Regarding time, this was primarily based on the immediate creation after the previous WP:AFD. Longer page curation can be taken in the draftspace. And AFD doesn't judge the current state of the article (which is obviously poor), it judges its merits for inclusion. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 16:39, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * As an example, I wrote up a more succinct encyclopedic article on the proposed subject: User:Gonzo fan2007/MIL. It seems like a nice enough stub, however almost all of this was merely pulled from List of Green Bay Packers stadiums and Lambeau Field. These other articles either cover the topic already, or are more appropriate for this topic and should be expanded accordingly. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 17:15, 18 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep ... ish A team playing home games away from their own home field for this long seems like a notable subject. The citations are plentiful, but, it could really benefit from some non-Milwaukee perspective. Can any material be found from somewhere non-local that isn't just a coverage of the games themselves? Surely ESPN or SI must have done a write-up about the Packers in Milwaukee at one time. ValarianB (talk) 18:09, 18 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Not wanting to badger the keeps, but note that almost all of the citations in the article don't actually cover the topic significantly. They are either game recaps or stories that have passing mentions of the Packers' time in Milwaukee.  « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 18:15, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I did note that, yes, but there are two citations that note the 1994 departure and do a little recap of the history. Scant, but it's there. Consider my "vote" as a 50.1% in favor of keeping at the moment, it may get revised if things develop. ValarianB (talk) 18:21, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Cheers, « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 18:31, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * , Oh, there's actually a pretty healthy amount of articles about the Packers' time in Milwaukee: On This Date in Sports December 18, 1994: Milwaukee Packers, Today In Brewer History: County Stadium's Last Packers Game, Jerry Kramer Talks About the Packers Playing at Milwaukee County Stadium, Green Bay 101: Where Do the Packers Play?, '82 strike made County Stadium Packers' home field, VIDEO :: Packers at 100 - The Team's Top 3 Milwaukee Moments, Packers Games At County Stadium | Notable Green Bay Games In Milwaukee, The 1994 Green Bay Packers (9-7) - PackersHistory.net, 2019 marks the 25th anniversary of the Packers leaving Milwaukee County Stadium, The Packers/Brewers Connection, The Road to the Ice Bowl Went Through Milwaukee: The 1967 Packers-Rams Western Conference Title Game at County Stadium. Also, I believe that you're  really jumping to conclusions by immediately removing the section on the television broadcasters for the Milwaukee Packers games. Just because that particular list was viewed as not notable enough for its own separate article doesn't mean that they still can't be relevant (in a broader sense) somehow elsewhere. If anything, they go hand in hand with the list on Green Bay Packers broadcasters. BornonJune8 (talk) 06:45, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
 * First ref is Barstool Sports, which is certainly not a reliable source. Second ref got it's information from Wikipedia, so fails WP:CIRCULAR. Third ref is a WordPress blog, not a reliable source. Fourth reference appears to be a blog. Seventh is a blog. Eighth appears to be a fan site of some sort. Tenth one is a post from an SBNation site from back when they were mainly user-generated content only. The rest seem to at least be from reliable sources, but I'd have to look into them further to see if they help this article pass WP:GNG.  Eagles   24/7  (C)  13:14, 20 December 2019 (UTC)


 * A section on broadcasters of Green Bay Packers games in Milwaukee is no different than a section on broadcasters in the article for the Bills Toronto Series or the Playoff Bowl. It may be too narrow or a subject for an individual article, but it's still essential to it's history when you get right down to it. BornonJune8 (talk) 08:10, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * It is important to note that in the case of Bills Toronto Series, you added the broadcaster info to the table. And your other example, Playoff Bowl, is a branded one-game-a-season series event like the Super Bowl (Bills Toronto Series was too) and nothing like the Packers splitting their home games between two cities. Who broadcasted the Playoff Bowl may be relevant, similar to who got to broadcast the Super Bowl. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 20:23, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't think that complaining about me adding the broadcaster information for the Bills Toronto Series is valid because not everybody has information about specific subjects readily available to them. For example, you can find broadcaster information on NFL games on this website. Who broadcast these special events should be as important or significant as the results themselves. You seem to suggest that there's proof that the broadcaster information isn't relevant or necessary since nobody bothered to add it to the tables until recently. Would it have honestly bothered you less if somebody else, with absolutely nothing to do with this particular discussion added the broadcaster information instead? BornonJune8 (talk) 10:03, 20 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Just flat out laying out that the Packers played a portion of their home games a year in Milwaukee is way more direct than having to go from a bunch of different directions to get information. That would be like saying that there shouldn't be an independent article for instance, on the Buffalo Bills' home games in Toronto since, we should already know that Toronto is a part of the Bills' market and fan base. It's too presumptuous to assume that everybody should immediately or already know full well about the Packers' stint in Milwaukee. Don't think or look at this as a die-hard fan who is already "in the know". BornonJune8 (talk) 08:15, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * It is not that it isn't notable or relevant. It should just be a section of an already existing article: List of Green Bay Packers stadiums. That makes the most sense. It can then be mentioned in other relevant articles as needed. But it's home should be List of Green Bay Packers stadiums, which is an article whose scope specifically discusses the various stadiums the Packers played in throughout their history. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 20:23, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * It's a tad ironic that you're arguing that an article like this should be deleted, when in your opening paragraph, you gave a brief summary about the Packers' time playing in Milwaukee. Again, the articles that you suggested us to go (for why there's no need for an individual article) don't directly or squarely focus on the Packers' time in Milwaukee (but something broader in scope like virtually, their entire history). Also, the Packers didn't just play in a single venue in Milwaukee and the article that you directed me to is just a list and not an actual, in-detail summary. BornonJune8 (talk) 08:26, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Every single possible topic doesn't necessarily warrant an article. Just because something happened, doesn't mean an article should be created on it. What I am arguing is that the topic doesn't meet our notability guidelines and is already covered by an existing article: List of Green Bay Packers stadiums. It is why we don't have articles like Green Bay Packers home games at Marquette Stadium. Sure it happened, and sure there are sources about it, but the topic is way too specific and is already covered by articles with broader topics. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 20:32, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * You're really reaching here and using an apples and oranges argument. There's a difference between an article on the Packers playing in a singular venue like Marquette Stadium (which may have only been for a few or handful of years) and to an article that chronicles their over 40 year stint in Milwaukee. Sure, the Packers did play at Marquette Stadium, but it wasn't the only Milwaukee venue that they played there. And what's not to say that an article on the Packers' home games in Milwaukee isn't warranted? The list of Packers stadiums doesn't go into issues like game results, seating amenities, playing conditions, ticket sales, etc. BornonJune8 (talk) 09:27, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * The section about the broadcasters is supplemental information if you want to call it that. Think about it this way, wouldn't someone actually be curious about who actually broadcast the final Green Bay Packers home game in Milwaukee (Joe Buck and Tim Green on Fox in 1994). And dare I suggest that the Milwaukee games are in their own sense, "special events" just like the Buffalo Bills games in Toronto or the Dallas Cowboys and Detroit Lions playing on Thanksgiving. BornonJune8 (talk) 09:39, 18 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep passes WP:GNG with ample reliable third party sources. Agree the article needs to be edited, but AFD is not cleanup.--Paul McDonald (talk) 20:53, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * , curious as to whether you would support the merger of this article into List of Green Bay Packers stadiums, instead of deletion? Or do you think that this article and the stadiums article are different enough to justify two separate articles. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 22:02, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * The time of the packers playing in Milwaukee is considered significant and I believe worthy of its own article. If it should be merged to another semi-related article would be a merger discussion that I think would be best handled outside the scope of this AFD.--Paul McDonald (talk) 22:58, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

You come across sounding like you're tooting your own personal horn when you bring up the argument that there's no need for an article like this since you already contributed heavily to an separate article on the list of stadiums that the Packers have played in. Again, that's fine on its own, but it doesn't go into other areas of interest like the exact dates each season and the teams that they played against in Milwaukee. Bare in mind, that you're all but required in Wikipedia to add in the Edit summary Attribution: content in this section was copied... to indicate when you forked the content from elsewhere on Wikipedia. BornonJune8 (talk) 12:13, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep. Meets WP:GNG and WP:BASIC as a concept, per all above. It should probably be renamed to History of the Green Bay Packers in Milwaukee, or something like that, but that's an editing issue, not a deletion issue. Ejgreen77 (talk) 22:46, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep. Meets WP:GNG with RSs. Noteworthy topic and an article that serves our readers. Lightburst (talk) 01:23, 19 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.