Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Green Tortoise


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was KEEP. &mdash; J I P | Talk 10:03, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Green Tortoise
Two hotels and a bus make not an encyclopedia entry, except if it is vanity, spam, POV, like this. Dunc|&#9786; 13:24, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
 *  Strong Keep - Unreal. Frustrating -- I suppose it makes sense that a flurry or work and changes would prompt it all getting deleted.  This community is a legend with a group that is not extremely internet savvy (thus I'm sure it is weak on google test, etc -- actually ~60,000)  Published in major magazine (travel weekly, 1987 )   I'm sure there are others.  It dates back over 30 years and has had significant social impact, particularly on the west coas*t.  As accused:
 * Vanity?, the article still reads like they'll take your money and drop you naked in the desert. (with a veggie meal)
 * spam? riiight.
 * The NPOV template was already on the page, we're working on it.
 * Amazed, best.. ;) &there4; here&hellip;&spades; 14:23, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Keep - a far from perfect article, but also very far from deserving deletion. --OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 14:53, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment - Nothing in this article right now would make me vote keep. The best assertion of notability ("It dates back over 30 years and has had significant social impact, particularly on the west coast...") appears on this AfD and not in the article.  If that statement is indeed WP:V and the article is updated to include contentions of notability, I would say keep.. but right now I just see a bus line and two hostels - that apparently provide lackluster service - with the greatest claim to notability being that they run a line to Burning Man. Abstaining to see if the article matures.--Isotope23 16:40, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
 * We are having serious issues adding anything to the article at all, as the POV discussion is rather heated. I will admit that finding verifiable information has been difficult, at best, but I think this is a problem with a word of mouth and pre-internet history.  Their greatest claim to notabilty is the fame their bus line attained pre-burning man and pre-hostels.  In particular, they ran a hop-on hop-off line up and down the west coast, which has since been discontinued.  I'll see if I can find some verifiable sources reflecting my 30 years of impact statement today.  &there4; here&hellip;&spades; 18:09, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * That would be helpful and would probably go a long way towards making sure this doesn't get AfD'd again if indeed the information is verifiable. If the information is word of mouth, then yes you will have a problem sourcing it, but if there is pre-internet media about it (books, newspapers, magazines, etc.) a biliographic mention would establish verifibility... see Vampire Watermelon for example.  Seems completely ridiculous, but it is supported by text in an anthropological book (incidentally, someone scanned the pages and posted them on the web as proof because this article went through a couple of AfDs).  Just a suggestion because even if this survives AfD my guess is it will get nominated again at some point if no greater claim of notibility is made, or if the notability claims are not sourced.--Isotope23 20:53, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep. Extremely well known domestic hippy travel/adventure agency running trips along the west coast and across the country.  Google gets 68,000 hits for the phrase, the first few pages of which all refer to this use of the term, including at least one site for dissatisfied customers.  Bikeable 17:09, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Yes, the existing article has some POV problems, but since when is that grounds for deletion? We are working to achieve a consensus with all editors currently working on this article in the hopes of improving it to NPOV nature. The Tortoise is legendary in a number of circles, even if they aren't your circles. Kit 20:42, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. A perfectly reasonable article that is not advertising.--Nicodemus75 00:05, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment Added 7 additional sources. Will incorporate full text citations with additional time.  Includes washington post, two new york times, a front page wall street journal western, travel weekly, etc.  I assume this is enough for WP:V. &there4; here&hellip;&spades; 00:46, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep as edited (good job!). Very well-known, widely-discussed; culturallyu and historically significant, and if I can find a picture of the bus that I've taken, I'll release it and upload it. MCB 01:32, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. As clear from being written up in New York Times, Wall Street Journal, etc, etc, it's notable. -R. S. Shaw 03:57, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Useful topic, relevant, even if body text still needs work. MarkWahl 05:01, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Ah yes, brings back vagabond memories of 1980s and my college years... Decumanus 03:59, 29 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.