Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Greg Terhune


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   speedy deleted . By User:Orangemike. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:04, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Greg Terhune

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

An autobiography, see talk page. I found a source that says he signed a contract with the Columbus Crew of Major League Soccer but I can not find anything to say he actually played for them. I also can not find significant coverage in multiple reliable sources about him. GB fan 16:36, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

I was with them in 2007. I did not get first team action but was on the reserve team. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gregoryat (talk • contribs) 20:41, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:32, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:34, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:34, 5 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Strongly Keep the article is supported by the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/United_States_and_Canada_task_force and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Sports_and_games. Plus this article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. Gregoryat (talk) 04:56, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * just FYI, the project tags are simply notifications to groups of people who generally like to edit certain types of articles and have knowledge about where to look for sources, standard layout procedures for particular types of articles and who may be particularly interested in things like deletion discussions about the article. That an article has one or more project tags slapped on it does not mean anything else and particularly does not qualify as meeting any of the WP:GNG requirements for remaining as a stand alone article. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  21:46, 7 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete - per nom. There is insufficient coverage for this article to meet WP:GNG, and since Mr. Terhune never made his first debut, the article fails WP:NSPORT. Sir Sputnik (talk) 23:36, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete - per nom. Contract with Columbus Crew is listed as a "temporary contract" and he never played a game, thus he fails WP:NSPORT.  Most of the refs in the article are primary and non-primary doesn't go into any "significant details", thus he fails WP:GNG. Bgwhite (talk) 02:33, 6 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Strongly Keep As per there is sufficient coverage of this article by the various sources as provided, and since I made my debut with the Crew in 2007, thus the article meets the requirements. An athlete is presumed to be notable if the person has actively participated in a major amateur or professional competition or won a significant honor, as listed on this page, and so is likely to have received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject. WP:NSPORT. Here, I played for the West Virginia Chaos which is a major amateur competition and played division 1 soccer at Marshall University. Further, I played in the reserve league of the MLS which classifies as a professional competition. I won a significant honor by being the Conference USA Defensive player of the week which meets WP:GNG. Thus, the previous assertions to delete the article on all the requirements should be reprimanded for their gross negligence of the requirements.

Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gregoryat (talk • contribs) 00:00, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete - fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL. Only editor !voting to keep is the subject himself, says it all really. GiantSnowman 09:22, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep satisfies under both WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL. Giant-snowman negligently reads the statutes and fails to interrupt as give aboveAs per there is sufficient coverage of this article by the various sources as provided, and since I made my debut with the Crew in 2007, thus the article meets the requirements. An athlete is presumed to be notable if the person has actively participated in a major amateur or professional competition or won a significant honor, as listed on this page, and so is likely to have received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject. WP:NSPORT. Here, I played for the West Virginia Chaos which is a major amateur competition and played division 1 soccer at Marshall University. Further, I played in the reserve league of the MLS which classifies as a professional competition. I won a significant honor by being the Conference USA Defensive player of the week which meets WP:GNG. Thus, the previous assertions to delete the article on all the requirements should be reprimanded for their gross negligence of the requirements.  The editors don't understand the requirements, that says it really Giant-snowman. Gregoryat (talk) 14:20, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * You don't get to !vote twice. Arzel (talk) 15:16, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Three times actually. I'll strike them. GiantSnowman 16:09, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, to help clarify the situation and the criteria because GiantSnowman does not know the criteria apparently. Gregoryat (talk) 19:57, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * You are, of course, right - in my seven years here I have failed to grasp the notability guidelines that you have mastered in mere days. Apologies. GiantSnowman 20:31, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks I know I am right because I can read and understand statutes and guidelines. Just because you have been "here" for seven years does not define that you know what you are talking about or know the criteria. Gregoryat (talk) 20:45, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * It is not appropriate to strike the entirety of his comments. I have changed that to simply striking out the extraneous bolded words. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:51, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Apologies, and thanks for rectifying. GiantSnowman 16:53, 6 November 2012 (UTC)


 *  Keep  Please do not touch my comments. Gregoryat (talk) 17:19, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete - Severe conflict of interest. Arzel (talk) 15:16, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment a conflict of interest is not a reason to delete an article. Someone with a conflict of interest can write a neutral article about a notable subject.  I still do not believe this article is about someone that meets our notability guidelines.  GB fan 01:39, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * We do not care what you believe in because the fact is this meets the notability guidelines. Gregoryat (talk) 14:16, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I understand you don't care about anyone's opinion but your own and anyone who agrees with you. The admin that will eventually close this discussion and decide if this article is kept or deleted will consider all the opinions.  So far your opinion is in the minority.  The admin will also discount opinions that are not based in policy such as the one I responded to above that advocated deleting the article based on your conflict of interest.  GB fan 14:28, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * In case you have followed the discussion, my statements have been based on policy. Gregoryat (talk) 15:19, 7 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Don't put personal beliefs on this page only on guidelines which fan fails. Gregoryat (talk) 15:28, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep Follow your own policies then. Gregoryat (talk) 17:19, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Please stop adding a bolded word to every comment you make, more information at my post on your talk page. Thanks. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:45, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

(talk) we are talking about major sports here and it satisfies the criteria for notable under WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL.Gregoryat (talk) 19:54, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete - my dad played reserve matches for Leicester Tigers, does that make him notable? No. The only person voting keep is, as previously stated, the guy whom this article is about. Lukeno94 (talk) 19:41, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Major sports? Rugby is not a major sport? Well, I'll be damned. Lukeno94 (talk) 10:56, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Its ok Lukeno94, I can help you understand. Gregoryat (talk) 14:10, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Stop insulting me as I was clearly being sarcastic. Rugby Union IS a major sport, Leicester Tigers are one of the biggest Rugby Union teams in the world. My dad would still not be notable for having played for their reserves. Likewise, you are unnotable for playing for the reserves of an MLS club - so stop being vain and thinking you are WP-worthy. Lukeno94 (talk) 17:56, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't need to insult you because you are making yourself look foolish. Likewise, playing professional with an MLS club makes not WP-worthy. Gregoryat (talk) 18:02, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Are you completely and utterly stupid? There are hundreds of players whom sign professional football contracts but never make an appearance because they either weren't good enough (as I'm presuming you weren't), or had to retire due to health/injury reasons before they could play in a pro league. The MLS Reserves league is no more a professional league than the English U21 league is. Also, unless you're being sarcastic yourself, I'm pretty sure the last bit of your comment shoots all your arguments in the foot. Lukeno94 (talk) 19:01, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Lukeno94 what kind of education do you have, it must not be past grade school. As I can see from your lack of knowledge from your posts, thats why the English National team is a crap team. Gregoryat (talk) 21:41, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * NOTICE both Lukeno94 and Gregoryat are reminded that it is inappropriate to call each other names. Additional breaches will lead to users being blocked from editing. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  21:51, 7 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete. The author claims this passes WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL but I disagree. Of the 8 sources, two, possible three does not appear to be independent of the subject. Nos 1 and 3 are identical with what appears to be a press release from, which isn't independent and thus doesn't count for notability purposes. No 2 appear to be about the same event, and a short notice about someone signing up with a new club doesn't establish notability, only that he signed up. 4, 5, 7, possibly also no. 6 aren't independent of the subject (former clubs), while number 8 is a bio from a charity he is active with as a coach. Therefore, he does not pass WP:GNG has he claims, and as far as I can tell. As for WP:NFOOTBALL; the criteria is either to have played/coached/managed in an international match, or to have played for/coached/managed in a fully professional league. As far as I can tell from the sources and the article in question, he has done neither. The guideline also states that "A player who signs for a domestic team but has not played in any games is not deemed to have participated in a competition, and is therefore not generally regarded as being notable." So as far as I can tell, he simply isn't notable, or at least haven't provided the sources needed. Bjelleklang -  talk 21:54, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Well as you stated I do pass WP:GNG as I claim. As for WP:NFOOTBALL; the criteria is either to have played/coached/managed in an international match, or to have played for/coached/managed in a fully professional league. I have played an a fully professional league being Major League Soccer. Thus, meets the requirements of being notable. Gregoryat (talk) 22:01, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * If so, you need to provide the sources that say so, or show that my analysis of the sources is wrong. The article also need an additional reference to back up the info under "Youth and Amateur" in order to conform to WP:BLPSOURCES. Bjelleklang -  talk 07:43, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The sources have been provided as to this page for Major League Soccer and nothing really needed for "Youth and Amateur!" Gregoryat (talk) 14:10, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * You have added a link to register-herald.com, which mentions you briefly but it also says The Rage, like the Chaos a young team playing in the Player Development League. To me, this sounds like either a junior or a reserves team, and without additional sources this won't pass any of the two main policies cited so often in this debate. Since you are so certain that you're notable enough, please find some sources for it, or let the AfD run it's course. Nothing will change without additional sources, no matter how much you insist on being notable and on everyone else being wrong about the policies. You've got at least 5 very experienced editors participating in the discussion, and this AfD is nothing special to any of us; we've seen both the arguments and type of article before, and without additional sources it will not survive. Virtually none of the existing sources are independent, meaning that even if I were to be wrong about the register-herald article, the article would still have to be shortened significantly as the currently is no way to verify most of the information in it from independent sources. I hate to see articles go, but without proper references there can be no other solution. Bjelleklang -  talk 18:20, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The PDL is an amateur league - most players are college players trying to get some experience/exposure, as well former professionals and as a few who never made it. GiantSnowman 18:35, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Never once stated that PDL is not amateur. Thanks for stating the obvious. Gregoryat (talk) 18:44, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Then why are you claiming to have played in a fully-professional league? GiantSnowman 18:51, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Not claiming under PDL but MLS, if you can read the prior comments!!! Gregoryat (talk) 18:55, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * But you never played in the MLS. GiantSnowman 18:57, 7 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete. Fails  NFooty.  The MLS Reserve League isn't fully professional.  Same for the West Virginia Chaos and Marshall Thundering Herd.  Both teams are amateur.  Winning defensive player of the week in C-USA isn't notable.  An example of a notable award is the Soccer America Player of the Year Award or the Hermann Trophy.  Patken4 (talk) 22:33, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete. Subject does not satisfy specific notability guideline (SNG) of WP:NFOOTBALL, and is therefore not entitled to presumption of notability.  Article author and chief defender does not understand the requirements of the general notability guidelines per WP:GNG, specifically including the meaning of multiple "independent, reliable sources."  Comments above by Bjelleklang are right on the money.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:47, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The MLS Reserve League is a fully professional league. Good Try Gregoryat (talk) 04:29, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Do you have a source for that? It isn't listed here.  Patken4 (talk) 04:54, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, MLS Reserve League & Major League Soccer Gregoryat (talk) 04:59, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Major League Soccer is a fully professional league and is listed on that page. MLS Reserve League is not listed on that page and I have yet to see anything that says it is.  So what is your source that the MLS Reserve League is fully professional?  Patken4 (talk) 05:02, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Players playing in the MLS Reserve League are players on contract with Major League Soccer. You cannot play in any MLS competition without being on contract with the MLS. Gregoryat (talk) 05:08, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Being under contract with a MLS team does not mean the league is fully professional. Reserve leagues are usually made up of fringe players from first team and youth or inexperienced players looking for a full contract.  Just because you have a contract with a MLS side and get paid a nominal amount to play a match for it's reserve team does not make you or the league fully professional.  Patken4 (talk) 05:16, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * In case you are not familiar with the MLS, you cannot play a Reserve League game without being on contract. Thus, making it a fully professional league. Gregoryat (talk) 05:23, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Just being under contract with a MLS club does not make you fully professional unless you appear in a fully professional match, which would be with the full MLS club. MLS Reserve League matches can have up to five non-MLS players appearing in a match, which are either academy players or trialists.  Neither of these have contracts lasting more than a couple days and aren't considered fully professional, even if they were paid something to compete.  Source.  You can say all you want how it is fully professional, but the league's own by-laws say otherwise.  Patken4 (talk) 05:37, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Your argument is extremely flawed because as you state that your source is the 2012 Reserve League. I played in 2007 and did not have Academy Players. My contract was from May till December which is more than just a couple of days. Gregoryat (talk) 05:44, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Then it is on you to find the 2007 by-laws since you state it was fully professional. The burden of proof is on you.  In addition, both sources that state you signed with the Crew say it was "temporary".  Neither says it was a May to December contract.  Patken4 (talk) 05:49, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The burden should be on the editors that falsely say that the league isn't professional if they claim it is not. You cannot say it is not if you don't know then. Please remove your posts if you don't know. The contract was till December and even accorrding to the articles, it doesn't say how long, as every 1 year contract could be temporary then. Gregoryat (talk) 05:56, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I have given a link to the 2012 bylaws and it says it isn't fully professional. Clearly, we've established it isn't today.  You state that in 2007 there were different rules, but unless there is proof of this, how can we know?  Wikipedia doesn't take people's words as facts.  There needs to be sources that are reliable and independent.  Until you provide evidence of that, there is no need for me to continue to discuss this with you.  Patken4 (talk) 06:03, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * You have clearly not stated your point as I previously stated that the Academy wasn't even established till the fall of 2007. Thus wasn't integrated till later. Your argument once again fails. Gregoryat (talk) 06:11, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Really? New York Red Bulls Academy, established 2005, D.C. United Academy, established 2005, D.C. United Academy established 2004.  Might want to re-check that 2007 year.  Patken4 (talk) 06:14, 7 November 2012 (UTC) (WP:VAND) Do you even know soccer? Gregoryat (talk) 06:19, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes because the USSF academy league didn't start till 2008. Thus, those players only played club soccer under that name. Please check your sources more careful and don't delete my comments from your page. Gregoryat (talk) 06:17, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Am I to understand that User:Gregoryat is actually the subject of the article, Gregory Terhune? If so, the author has a major conflict of interest and should not even be editing, let alone creating an article about himself . . . .  Please see WP:COI and Autobiography.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:51, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Note Beeblebrox has been very patient and gentle in attempting to explain the deletion process, notability criteria, and conflict of interest concerns with article creator. --Jezebel's Ponyo bons mots  00:06, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * As I have been very patient dealing with editors that don't know the criteria of their own posts. Gregoryat (talk) 04:29, 7 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete - article is about a footballer who hasn't played in a fully pro league or represented his country at senior level, which means that the article fails WP:NFOOTBALL. Also fails WP:GNG due to lack of significant coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject. Mentoz86 (talk) 18:48, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The article is about a player that HAS played in fully pro league, which means that satisfies WP:NFOOTBALL. Also fails WP:GNG Gregoryat (talk) 19:01, 7 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete Gregoryat has not yet provided any evidence that Greg Terhune ever actually played a game in the MLS. Signing a contract with a team is not the same as playing for the team.  Neither is playing for a development organization (whether it requires a contract or not) the same as playing for the team.  WP:NFOOTY requires that a player have played for a fully professional league, which, for the United States in the time frame of interested, is limited to MLS (and not its development leagues).  Since notability cannot be assumed based on WP:NFOOTY, WP:GNG becomes the defining policy, and this subject fails WP:GNG by lack of significant coverage in multiple, independent sources.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 19:27, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Being provided various in independent sources satisfies WP:GNG, read the policy again. Gregoryat (talk) 20:09, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually there are a number of professional leagues in the United States, but this individual has not played in any of them. GiantSnowman 20:06, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually I have GianSnowman has proven otherwise as his continues negligence of the issue. Gregoryat (talk) 20:09, 7 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment Gregory, can you provide any actual proof that you have played even a single game within the MLS? Not that you have signed a contract with a team, or that you have played for a team's development organization, but an actual game with an actual MLS team.  If you can provide proof of such an event in a reliable source, you may have a point to make.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 20:28, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * He doesn't appear on the MLS all-time roster from back in 2009. Source. The page doesn't exist today, but it still exists at the Internet Archive.   Patken4 (talk) 21:26, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * ""Comment"" I am looking for the game results. I guess this article should have been written in 2007, thenGregoryat (talk) 21:15, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep I played with him in Indiana and I played in LA, while he was with Columbus. LA Kings 23 (talk) 21:17, 7 November 2012 (UTC) — LA Kings 23 (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.  !vote by confirmed sock struck. Favonian (talk) 21:56, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment I smell a WP:DUCK. Appropriate action taken.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 21:33, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment I smell a loser. Gregoryat (talk) 21:36, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * WikiDan61 lol you to are to funny... Gregoryat (talk) 21:41, 7 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment. Can this be closed per WP:SNOW or should we wait a week to make it official?  Patken4 (talk) 22:19, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment. Looks like the article was deleted but the AfD wasn't close.  Can an Admin perform this?  Patken4 (talk) 23:27, 7 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.