Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Grietje Veenstra


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 04:07, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Grietje Veenstra

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Fails WP:NSPORTS. A sportsperson who won some local competitions, with a very local source (regional pubisher). I couldn't find any other sources, she will be included in some old newspapers (just like every somewhat succesful local sportsperson is included in local and regional newspapers), but seems to lack the required coverage to meet NSPORTS. Fram (talk) 13:31, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Fram (talk) 13:31, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Fram (talk) 13:31, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Netherlands-related deletion discussions. Fram (talk) 13:31, 9 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep Meets GNG. From the book “Vrouwen in de Hardrijdersbaan” (Could be translated as: Women in speed skating). Not a regional source, but a national book publication. This book describes the main Dutch women who made speed skating history. Speed skating is the second largest sport in the Netherlands with a rich history. A section of two pages in this book is dedicated to her. In this book is she described as one of the main women speed skaters in her era. These “local competitions” as the nominator names is, were the highest level speed skating competitions in that era. These competitions, mainly in Friesland were published across the Netherlands and not only in Frisian media. (For many more speed skaters that otherwise could be nominated for deletion for the same reason see Template:Kortebaan speed skaters (women)). SportsOlympic (talk) 14:15, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Note This is the book SportsOlympic (talk) 14:24, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Note 2 Meets NSports#Basic criterea. SportsOlympic (talk) 14:29, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Nsports:Basic criteria requires multiple non-trivial sources, so even if one does accept that book as one good enough source, she still doesn't meet the criteria. Inote that e.g. here, a source you use for many of the others, she only gets a passing mention, nothing more. Being the second most popular sport in a country doesn't give one unlimited entries: cycling was (and is) hugely popular in Belgium, but many amateur cyclists winning local races in 1890 or so will never get articles as they aren't notable either, even though the local and regional newspapers will have produced race reviews. Basically, you'll need more indepth sources for her (and for other similar articles) to get the subjects to meet NSPORTS. Fram (talk) 15:19, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
 * You’re showing another book. The book is not extensively about that period; and more research has been done later on. The book I used for this article is writing more in dept about the several skaters; that’s the reason I added this skater. Compared to the Belgian cyclist; this is the history of Dutch kortebaanschaatsen, popular in that era. That’s why there are many books about these persons. And many skaters in that book are described only in a few sentences (I think not enough to have an article about them). I’m thinking of adding them to a list. SportsOlympic (talk) 16:46, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. Fails WP:BASIC and WP:GNG as there is very little coverage on her; one non-notable book about women in speed skating certainly isn't enough. Fails WP:SPORTSBASIC too, as she has not participated in a major competition.  Walwal20  talk ▾ contribs 16:47, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , it would help to explain your statements. Can you tell why it fails all you mention? SportsOlympic (talk) 20:27, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I expanded it. Unfortunately, since the subject is from years far in the past, we won't have many sources, but nothing can be done about that. We cannot state that she was "main women speed skaters in her era" based on a single source. It could be just WP:PUFF, especially in a book about speed skating, and specially in a book about women in particular.  Walwal20  talk ▾ contribs 00:50, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. The article overstates the importance of Grietje Veenstra in 'Vrouwen in de Hardrijdersbaan'. In the article, it says "In the Dutch book 'Vrouwen in de Hardrijdersbaan', about the Dutch women’s speed skating history, Veenstra is described as one of the main speed skaters in her era." The book lists important skaters such as Lutske Wester and their contemporaries, women who also won prizes in competitions. Veenstra belongs to the latter category. Her single paragraph starts with the brief intro "Een figuur van iets groter formaat kwam enkele jaren later." Translating: A figure of slightly greater format came a few years later. She receives one paragraph of 5 sentences in a chapter "Contemporaries". Slightly greater than whom? Slightly greater than Trijntje Kingma who correctly did not receive an article. By the weight given in the book, Grietje Veenstra should not have one either. Correspondingly there are just listings in Delpher. While the effort to create articles about sportswomen in the 19th and early 20th century is much appreciated (!), a book like 'Vrouwen in de Hardrijdersbaan' should not be scraped to the last person mentioned. gidonb (talk) 09:48, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * This is implicit but I'll make it explicit. Having looked into it, I do accept the book as a valid source. Nothing wrong with the publisher either. gidonb (talk) 10:18, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. Sorry, SportsOlympic, I can't find anything to help establish notability for this person. Drmies (talk) 21:50, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.