Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gruban Malić


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. (non-admin closure) &mdash;  Yash! (Y) 04:12, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Gruban Malić

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 * Delete: don't know what this is but it doesn't smell kosher. Quis separabit?  23:12, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete - I am not even sure where to start with this one.--Rpclod (talk) 00:00, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I only hope that the excellent analysis listed below is added to the original article.--Rpclod (talk) 03:31, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:18, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:18, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Yugoslavia-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:19, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Montenegro-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:20, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Montenegro-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:20, 25 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Merge into Miodrag Bulatović. I can find some discussion of the character although most of it is in places that I can't entirely verify . I get the feeling that he would likely pass notability guidelines if we could access these and have someone look into the foreign language sources, but until then I have to say that this should be merged and redirected to the author's article with the article history intact. I've found enough evidence to suggest that the hoax incident is notable enough to at least include in the author's article and I also strongly get the impression that much of the coverage of the character and the hoax was in a foreign language, so it may not be easily accessed with an English language search (one source mentions a Hebrew language paper and Hebrew can't be easily searched with English)- especially since pre/early internet sources are not always on the web. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡)  05:54, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Changing my vote to a keep based on the additional sources found since I posted this. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡)  04:11, 1 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep. Besides the 1998 article linked in our article, this 2009 story carries the same story with more information than is in our article. The Boston Globe article about the vague wanted poster is apparently "A `Wanted' poster that leaves any pursuers wanting [City Edition] Boston Globe, Boston, Mass., Lakshmanan, Indira A R, Mar 10, 1996". I can only see the abstract as I am not a subscriber. This is a working link to the original indictment of GRUBAN while this shows the charges dropped. The ICTY does not identify him as Gruban Malic. Whether the hoax was in the indictment or the identification of him with the fictional character, his story is still significant as anti-Western (anti-American, anti-ICTY) and later anti-Richard Goldstone (Israel) propaganda. Rmhermen (talk) 05:49, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
 * But it makes little to no sense to the average reader/editor, and reads like a rambling conspiracy theory. If it is to stay (and I support deletion or merger) it needs to be clarified. Quis separabit?  05:55, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
 * For a hoax it is fairly straight forward - one person told a bad joke, another didn't realize it was a joke. Doesn't seem confusing as written to me. Rmhermen (talk) 03:26, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
 * 'Keep, meets WP:GNG, at present 2 or 3 of the article's references are notable.
 * Of the ten references/footnotes presently cited in the article:
 * 1. is a review of the 1966 book Hero on a Donkey by Miodrag Bulatović in which Gruben first appeared.
 * 2. is a couple of sentences mentioning Bulatović's Gruban; the book is The Rackham Journal of the Arts and Humanities by Ann Arbor, published by Graduate Students at the University of Michigan in 1987.
 * 3. from The Eerie World of Miodrag Bulatović in The Slavic and East European Journal 12 (3) discusses the life and writings of Bulatović including Hero on a Donkey.
 * 4. When Goldstone Indicted a Fictional Character (and a Dead Man) Judge Goldstone, who said Israel committed war crimes in Gaza, once indicted a fictional Serbian character and a dead man for war crimes as well. By Nissan Ratzlav-Katz of Arutz Sheva, israelnationnews.com; discusses the Gruban hoax in depth and detail.
 * 5.  Genocidalism by Aleksandar Jokic appearing in The Journal of Ethics Vol. 8, No. 3 (2004), pp.251-297 is only accessible by members.
 * 1. outsider paradigm and war appearing in REC-magazine for literature and culture and social issues by Tihomir Brajovic is a discussion of Serbian war literature has a paragraph on Bulatović's "donkey main hero Malic', there is no mention of Gruban.
 * 2. Deceit of the Century in the Book by Nebojsa Jevic  Phantom on the Wanted Poster   by Pavle PAVLOVIC  for the Serbian Network is another discussing the hoax.
 * 3. International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia wikipedia article on the ICTA with no mention of Gruban The other link leads to general ICTY site, Gruban search brings up nothing.
 * 4. an op. cit.
 * 5. similar to 3. although thanks to  Rmhermen who has found 2 sites that show a ICTY indictment of a Gruban and that charges have been dropped but with no mention of the hoax.
 * Also, the three citations mentioned by Tokyogirl79, one of which includes a review of another book The War Was Better by Bulatović "The adventures of Gruban Malić", would bolster the article's notability.
 * Another notable online pages i have found in a google search:
 * THE TYRANNY OF HUMAN RIGHTS by Kirsten Sellars of the Spectator writes of the various war crimes tribunals "war-crimes tribunals look less like paragons of justice and more like the political tools of Clinton and Blair." concludes her article talking of "The Gruban-as-rapist hoax" "It would be funny if it weren't so tragic." (I have tried to access the Spectator archive to see the actual newspaper article but it causes my computer to 'hang') Coolabahapple (talk) 03:30, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Natg 19 (talk) 00:20, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Strong keep but perhaps rename to something else such as "Gruban Malić incident". It was a well-documented joke which resulted in a judge indicting a fictional character in a United Nations court, and then a book about the prank. Many articles in Serbian. But it could be called something else, as it is notable for the incident, and not the character himself. Elgatodegato (talk) 23:02, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.