Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Guido Henkel


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Withdrawn by nominator in response to significant page improvement efforts and demonstrated notability. (non-admin closure) ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 10:43, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Guido Henkel

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Lots of red flags for a WP:SELFPROMO article. Littered with puffed up accomplishments and suspiciously specific and unsourced biographic details---an editor named "Guidoman" pops in often to announce new developments in Mr. Henkel's life. In terms of sourcing, it's a mix of self-published/primary sources, secondary sources confirming the existence of products he's worked on with only minimal (if any) mentions of him, and unverifiable dead links. I do not think they amount to significant coverage. The relevant guideline is WP:CREATIVE. Out of the four possible criteria, he could only possibly qualify under #3, "played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work". He has a lot of credits over a long career, that's not in doubt, but I don't see any sources that establish him as a central figure in the creation of those works. Axem Titanium (talk) 10:32, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 10:43, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 10:44, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 10:44, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 10:44, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 10:44, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 10:45, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 10:46, 27 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Hm. WP:AUTHOR => "The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work. In addition, such work must have been the primary subject of an independent and notable work (for example, a book, film, or television series, but usually not a single episode of a television series) or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews."
 * In the works list that Axem Titanium left I see eight notable games he worked on, at least three more are notable but don't have an article in en:WP yet (but in de:WP, with good sources), and with just one Google search I found sources for two of the games Axem Titanium deleted from the list.
 * What's this AfD about? Quality issues? That's the way to deal with quality issues? Weird. Kind regards, Grueslayer 11:06, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I am not contesting that the subject is credited on notable games. I am asserting that his contributions do not constitute the "major role" that WP:CREATIVE requires. One can have a minor role in creating as many games as you like but so long as those roles are minor, they do not confer notability. To the extent that sources refer to him in the context of game development, it is not in his capacity as a creative. Obviously, this AFD is about deleting an article on (what I believe is) a non-notable subject, otherwise I would have used one of many alternatives to deletion. Your insinuation otherwise is frankly uncalled for. Axem Titanium (talk) 12:04, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I beg you pardon? That actually made me curious and I gave the games list a quick look (Mobygames only...) to see if he played a minor role somewhere. That is indeed the case, for Jagged Alliance he "only" did the music, and The Oath should be deleted from the list (only credited for the manual). But otherwise? Producer or designer. What could be more major? Kind regards, Grueslayer 12:22, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, one of many designers or programmers who worked on these games. Usually the director or lead designer is the one we label the "major role". Video game producer is not principally a creative role---it's more like a product manager who manages and allocates resources on a project. Axem Titanium (talk) 12:34, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I find it appalling that such obviously biased comments as "it is not in his capacity", "puffed up accomplishments", "suspiciously specific" and "pops in often to announce new developments in Mr. Henkel's life" were used in this supposedly-neutral discussion about the deletion of a Wikipedia article. I do not doubt that user Guidoman is the subject himself (causing a COI), but one should remain neutral and polite in discussing any person or article. Merely because one edits one's own Wikipedia article does not make the topic of an article less important. Putting someone down (in such a condescending manner as noted above) is not a way to intelligently and neutrally review an article. The article could certainly use a re-write and better sourcing, but I see no puffery anywhere. I simply see a lot of facts put into sentences. There is no flaunting or bragging of any irrational or embellished accomplishments (the word "puffery" is far too often used on Wikipedia to degrade a topic in review). I believe that if this article is to reviewed, it should be on the basis of lack of proper sourcing. There are better ways to deal with articles lacking proper sourcing than deleting them.
 * Things of Note:
 * There are 98 results matched for the exact term "Guido Henkel" on the Internet Archive's printed text archive (mostly video game magazines), spanning from 1988 to 2021. Upon quick glance, one article from Computer Gaming World precisely states "Guido Henkel, designer of the Realms of Arkania series", while another in Next Generation lists him as the director of Planescape: Torment (contradicting Axem Titanium's comment about "not being in his capacity" and not holding "principally creative roles"). These archival entries should all be reviewed and taken into consideration as proper sources before the article can be determined for deletion.
 * First of all, half the hits in this search are false positives to a 19th century Count "Guido Henkel von Donnersmarck", so those are obviously not relevant. Our Guido is a designer of Realms of Arkania, more accurately one of several programmers on various entries in the series. The Next Generation result is actually from an advertisement that parodies a movie poster. It's not actually reporting from the magazine. In fact, no one is credited as director for Planescape Torment and Guido is credited as one of two producers. Chris Avellone, as writer and lead designer, is widely considered by reliable sources to be the main creative force behind Planescape. Axem Titanium (talk) 21:33, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Henkel is mentioned several times over the years in articles of notable newspaper. It appears that he was interviewed (though not in length) or quoted a number of times with regards to his website DVDreviews.com between 1999 and 2002. Have a quick look on Newspapers.com.
 * I don't have a subscription to Newspapers.com so I can't actually see the results here. If you do, please share. Importantly, it would need to be significant coverage of DVDreviews.com itself that establishes notability of the website, not merely reprinting reviews from the website. Axem Titanium (talk) 21:33, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Looking up "Guido Henkel" (in quotes) in Google and Google News also reveals a large number of interviews and feature articles published on both notable and reliable online sources. I do not think that "non-notable" applies given these results.
 * Google News turns up 28 results. I can't speak to the non-English ones but the remainder are previews of a Kickstarter game that never came out and a few articles that amount to trivia about how he's actually the guy on the cover of Planescape. I don't see these qualifying under WP:CREATIVE#3. Axem Titanium (talk) 21:33, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * There are also reliable sources that confirm that he was a guest speaker at major conventions like Game Developers Conference and Fangoria's Weekend of Horrors. It is not within the aim of these conferences to invite non-notable guest speakers, as their goal is to attract the largest possible audience. These simply need better sourcing.
 * I verified the former but I actually can't verify the latter at all. Regardless, "convention speaker" is not in any notability guideline that I'm aware of. Axem Titanium (talk) 21:33, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * --OrangeZestAir (talk) 20:22, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't know where you got the impression that AFD is a place for neutrality. Editors obviously come here arguing for a position either for or against deletion. WP:NPOV is a policy that applies to article content, not discussions. COI editing does not automatically make the subject less important but it does mean that any claim to notability made in the offending text must be scrutinized to a greater degree than it otherwise would with the presumption that it has been puffed up. I responded to your bullet points above in-line. Also, buddy, did you log into the wrong account? Axem Titanium (talk) 21:33, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Keep. Artist is prolific at the very least in the video game industry since the 1980s. As pointed out above, the subject has been featured and interviewed in many reliable and notable sources. Here are my own findings. All signs point to a keep. --Fallingintospring (talk) 00:38, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
 * 5-page interview with Atari Magazin (1988) about his company and the development of Hellowoon and Ooze Link
 * 2-page interview with Aktueller Software Markt Magazine (1988) about his work in the game design industry Link
 * interview with Power Play Magazine (1991) about his work at Attic Link
 * 2-page feature in Aktueller Software Markt Magazine (1992) about him and his company Attic Link
 * 3-page interview in PC Joker Magazine (1992) about his development of video games and his company Attic Link
 * 2-page feature article in Power Play Magazine (1992) about him and the video games he developed Link
 * feature article in PC Games (1993) covering his career and company Attic Link
 * 2-page feature in Aktueller Software Markt Magazine (1994) about him and his video game developing company Attic Link
 * 2-page feature in Amiga Joker Magazine (1995) about him and his company Attic Link
 * 7-page interview with Power Play Magazine (1996) covering his contributions as a video game designer and developer, his company Attic and his musical career Link
 * feature article in PC Player (1998) Link
 * 2-page interview with GameWeek Magazine (1999) Link
 * 3-page interview with Joystick Magazine (1999) covering his many contributions to the gaming world since the 1980s Link
 * interview with PC Player (1999) Link
 * 2-page feature in PC Joker Magazine (1999) covering his contribution to the development of Planscape: Torment Link
 * interview with PC Games (1999) Link
 * a feature with Chicago Tribune (1999) about his new company DVDReview.com and Easter eggs on DVDs (Henkel's name is mentioned 14 times). Link
 * interview with IGN (2001) about several of his companies and video game development Link
 * listed in the official Game Developers Conference pamphlet/event program as a guest speaker (2004) Link
 * interview with Atari Legend (2006) covering his many contributions in early video game designs and the companies he was part of Link
 * 3-page interview with PC Games (2007) Link
 * 5-page interview with DSA-Game (2007) about his work in the video game industry Link
 * interivew with Die Nordland Trilogie (2007) about his early days in the video game industry Link
 * interview with Geeks of Doom (2011) that discusses many of his author and video game contributions Link
 * interview with RPG Codex (2012) focusing on his contributions to Reals of Arkania Link
 * interview with The Nerd Cave (2013) covering Realms of Arkania: Blade of Destiny and Neverwinter Nights and more Link
 * interview with Rock Paper Shotgun (2013) covering his contributions to Realms Of Arkania, Planescape: Torment and Deathfire: Ruins Of Nethermore Link
 * interview with SlimGamer (2013) covering his development of Deatfhire: Ruins of Nethermore Link
 * 2-part interview with Ink-Wrapped (2014) covering his contributions as an author Link Link
 * interview with Licht Spielplatz (2014) about his development of Spirit of Adventure and more Link
 * interview with Videospiel Geschichten (2017) covering his work at Attic and Thalion Link
 * interview with Elektro Spieler (2019) covering a vast number of topics including his contributions in the video game industry Link
 * a feature article on Gamers Global (2019) about some of his contribution to the video game industry Link


 * Keep, mostly per Fallingintospring's exhaustive source listing. I was actually considering nominating this for deletion myself as well, and it looks like I missed a lot of sources because they were German language. IMO, they seem to easily clear the notability hurdle. That said -- Axem isn't wrong here, this article is WP:SELFPROMO to its core in its current state, but it should be aggressively cleaned up instead of deleted. It seems large parts of the article were edited by the subject himself (User:Guidoman) which means all of it obviously needs to be reviewed strenuously.  Nomader  ( talk ) 17:34, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I would support WP:TNT on the basis that there's really nothing salvageable about the current article. Axem Titanium (talk) 04:23, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Hmm... lemme see what I can do here.  Nomader  ( talk ) 05:47, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I strongly disagree with WP:TNT; I see it as User:Axem Titanium's last attempt at getting his way. I could fix up the page in no time with the sources that I found. In fact, any one of us here could have done so in just about the same time it took to have this debate! Let's be productive!--Fallingintospring (talk) 06:10, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I think that's what Axem's implying here, that we should improve the article by starting it over. I've already started a userdraft here so I can take my time and be meticulous about improving it, and I'm trying to cut down on a lot of the fluff language that's there and get to the nitty gritty of the bio here. The only issue I'm going to have is that I obviously don't speak German, so if you'd be willing to pitch in with help on sourcing some of the things once I've taken a pass at a rewrite, would love your help here.  Nomader  ( talk ) 06:15, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Sure man, I'd be happy to help you out! I just didn't want everything deleted because there's a good amount of information on there now that would serve as a good starting point. I was under the impression that TNT meant going through with the deletion, then someone having to re-submit a brand new page. That's not the case? You'll be working on this new draft over the current article?--Fallingintospring (talk) 06:24, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Yeah, exactly! That's definitely not the case-- I've seen Axem work before and he's not here to just blow random articles up for nothing (and neither am I). I'm going to move pretty quickly (I tend to do a bunch all at once) and try to fix whatever I'm able to either translate myself using Google Translate (which obviously isn't perfect) and English-language sources, and I'm going to leave statements in for now that I can't find sources for, but I imagine there have to be sources for somewhere in that pile of German language interviews and profiles you dropped on this AfD. My goal is to have something that's at least a bit better (and makes it clear to us where we need to improve it) by the time I'm going to bed tonight, so we can discuss it on the talk page with editors openly... but it's easier to sometimes write a draft on the side so you aren't destroying what's currently there, if that makes any sense.  Nomader  ( talk ) 06:29, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * That sounds great to me man! Keep me posted!--Fallingintospring (talk) 06:37, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Just for the record, that's exactly what I meant by TNT. None of the existing prose was remotely usable so might as well start fresh. Axem Titanium (talk) 07:43, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep I forgot to officially vote before; my reasoning is listed above, although a cheap attempt was made to discredit my findings and to slander me and my past edits... I really don't see how that's relevant nor helpful to this deletion review. Let's stick to the topic at hand shall we? are you voting on this? --OrangeZestAir (talk) 20:21, 28 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep Thanks for the ping; as this AfD is a waste of time I don't follow it. Per my arguments above. Kind regards, Grueslayer 20:26, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep and clean up (source, de-peacock) appropriately using the sources here. Chicago Tribune piece is a great find. Jclemens (talk) 06:56, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment I've just uploaded a new version of the page -- and only used a few sources in doing so. Basically just heavily cleaned up what was already there, and then added a few sources in before I passed out., I think you're good to withdraw this nom now if you're good with the cleanup efforts I've tried to make here (still a lot of "citation neededs" in there, so would get it if you aren't).  Nomader  ( talk ) 07:15, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Happy to withdraw based on good faith efforts by Nomader. Still needs more work but WP:TIND. Axem Titanium (talk) 07:44, 29 January 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.