Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Guo Ma (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. (non-admin closure) Desertarun (talk) 16:59, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Guo Ma
AfDs for this article:


 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

All Citations are offline and I don't find anything reliable through Google book search. Previously deleted through AfD here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Guo_Ma. Twinkle1990 (talk) 15:21, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of China-related deletion discussions. Twinkle1990 (talk) 15:21, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 *  Weak delete Keep The citations are all to sources over 1000 years old in the present article. A review of Google scholar turns up nothing and google just turns up references to video game characters from three kingdoms related games. I love three kingdoms and it is something Wikipedia could always expand on but I don't think Guo Ma has the basis to support an article currently. Simonm223 (talk) 15:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I didn't find the sources Cunard did when I went looking but those look more than sufficient to me. Changing my !vote accordingly. Simonm223 (talk) 13:28, 10 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History and Military.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 17:49, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources. The subject passes Notability (people), which says: "People are presumed if they have received significant coverage in  that are,  of each other, and .If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not usually sufficient to establish notability." Sources   The book notes: "天紀三年,廣州部曲督郭馬起事,攻殺廣州督虞授, 自稱為都督交、廣二州諸軍事、安南將軍. 又殺害南海太 守劉略、逐廣州刺史徐旗,以殷興為廣州刺史、吳述為南 海太守. 孫皓遂命滕修領兵萬人從東道,陶浚率兵七千人 從西道,又命陶璜帶領部伍,東西夾擊郭馬. ... 當時郭馬的亂事未平,滕修多番征伐不果,後聽從陶 璜之議,透過經濟手段,例如拒絕與對方作鹽鐵的交易, 使之陷入困境,終成功驅逐郭馬等人. ... 孫皓時發生的郭馬之 亂,雖非導致國滅亡的主因,不過經歷連年征戰,加上當時朝政腐敗,國家人才凋零,在這種形勢下,吳國根本 無力在討伐郭馬之餘,又派兵抵抗晉軍. " From Google Translate: "In the third year of Tianji, Guo Ma, the Guangzhou military supervisor, revolted and attacked and killed Yu Shu, the governor of Guangzhou. He called himself the governor of Guangzhou, the military governor of Guangzhou and Annan general. He also killed Liu Lue, the governor of Nanhai, and drove Xu Qi, the governor of Guangzhou, to appoint Yin Xing as the governor of Guangzhou and Wu Shu as the governor of Nanhai. ... At that time, the chaos of Guo Ma was not settled, and Teng Xiu tried repeatedly to conquer it without success. He later followed Tao Huang's advice and used economic means, such as refusing to trade salt and iron with the other party, to put it in trouble, and finally succeeded in expelling Guo Ma and others. ... Although the Guo Ma Rebellion that occurred during the reign of Sun Hao was not the main cause of the country's demise, after years of fighting and the corruption of the government at that time, the country's talents were withered. Under this situation, the Wu State was simply unable to send troops in addition to the crusade against Guo Ma. Resist the Jin army."   The book notes: "东吴天纪四年(279)夏,吴国再次发生内乱,这对晋国来说是一个利好消息. 这一年,吴国合浦太守脩允转任桂林(今广西象州)太守,因病住广 州. 在此之前脩允派督将郭马领兵五百先行去桂林安抚诸夷. 不久脩允逝 世,按照当时吴国规定,士兵应分给其他将领,郭马等人几代都在脩允的部 曲中为将,不想分开. 恰巧孙皓准备核实广州户口,这对广州的豪强来说绝 对不是好消息. " From Google Translate: "In the summer of the fourth year of the Eastern Wu Tianji (279), civil strife broke out in Wu State again, which was good news for Jin State. In this year, Xiu Yun, the governor of Hepu in the state of Wu, was transferred to the governor of Guilin (now Xiangzhou, Guangxi) and lived in Guangzhou due to illness. Prior to this, Xiu Yun sent the governor Guo Ma to lead 500 troops to Guilin to appease the barbarians. Soon after Xiu Yun passed away, according to the regulations of the State of Wu at that time, soldiers should be assigned to other generals. Guo Ma and others had been generals in Xiu Yun's army for several generations and did not want to be separated. It happened that Sun Hao was about to verify his Guangzhou household registration, which was definitely not good news for the powerful people in Guangzhou." The book notes: "于是郭马趁机与部曲将何典、王族、吴述、殷兴等人鼓动兵民造反,他 们聚合人众,攻杀广州都督虞授. 随后郭马自号都督交、广二州诸军事、安南将军, " From Google Translate: "So Guo Ma took the opportunity and teamed up with the generals He Dian, Wang Zu, Wu Shu, Yin Xing and others to incite the soldiers and people to rebel. They gathered the people and attacked and killed the governor of Guangzhou, Yu Shuo. Later, Guo Ma named himself the governor of Jiao, the military forces of Guangzhou and Guangzhou, and General Annan. Yin Xing named himself the governor of Guangzhou, and Wu Shu named himself the prefect of Nanhai."   The book notes: "孙吴用授兵制对私家部曲进行干预和控制,可以孙皓天纪三年(公元279年)郭马反叛事件作为典型例证. 郭马本是合浦太 守脩允的部曲督. 由于允死后,“兵当分给,马等累世旧军,不 乐离别”,于是郭马与部曲将何典、王族、吴述、殷兴等反叛, 攻杀广州督. " From Google Translate: "Sun Wu used the military conferment system to intervene and control private tribes. The Guo Ma rebellion in the third year of Sun Haotian's reign (AD 279) can be used as a typical example. Guo Ma originally was the governor of Xiu Yun, the governor of Hepu. Since after Yun's death, "the troops should be divided among the old troops, Ma and others were tired of seeing each other", so Guo Ma and his tribe generals He Dian, Wang Zu, Wu Shu, Yin Xing and others rebelled and attacked and killed the governor of Guangzhou." </li> <li> The book notes: "吴天纪三年 ( 公元279年)夏,合浦太守修允部曲督郭马 反,合聚人众,攻杀广州督虞授、南海太守刘略,逐广州刺史徐 旗. ... 郭马反叛牵制了驻扎交 州的陶璜和前去平叛的滕修等部,难以北援. " From Google Translate: "In the summer of the third year of Wu Tianji (AD 279), Guo Ma, the governor of the Xiuyun tribe of Hepu, rebelled, gathered a crowd, attacked and killed the governor of Guangzhou, Yu Shou, and the prefect of Nanhai, Liu Lue, and drove away the governor of Guangzhou, Xu Qi. ... The Guo Ma rebellion pinned down Tao Huang who was stationed in Jiaozhou and Teng Xiu who went to quell the rebellion, making it difficult for him to send reinforcements from the north." </li> <li> The book notes: "天纪三年(晋咸宁五年, 279 )夏爆发了震动全广州境的郭马兵变. ... 修允因在番禺养病,先派其部曲督郭马带兵 500 赴桂林"安抚诸夷". 修允所统兵乃是其父修则(战死于交州)旧部,或是更早的荆州兵及其后代. 郭马等是"累世旧军". 这些中下级将领同旧军兵士甚为团结. 修允病死,郭马等不愿按制度将修允全军分由其他将领统率散驻各处. 与此同时,孙皓又为增加賦役、征发兵员,令"科实广州户口". 于是郭马同下级军官何典、王族、吴述、殷兴等联络民众,发动兵变,攻杀广州督虞授、南海太守刘略,驱逐广州刺史徐旗. 郭马自号都督交、." From Google Translate: "In the third year of Tianji (the fifth year of Xianning in Jin Dynasty, 279), the Guo Ma mutiny broke out in the summer and shocked the entire Guangzhou territory. ... Xiu Yun was recuperating in Panyu, so he first sent Guo Ma, the governor of his tribe, to lead 500 troops to Guilin to "pacify the barbarians." The troops under Xiu Yun's command were the old troops of his father Xiu Ze (who died in Jiaozhou in battle), or the earlier Jingzhou soldiers and their descendants. Guo Ma and others are "old armies of many generations". These middle and lower-level generals are very united with the old army soldiers. Xiu Yun died of illness, and Guo Ma and others were unwilling to follow the system and distributed Xiu Yun's entire army to other generals to command and station them in various places. At the same time, Sun Hao also ordered "Guangzhou household registration" to be verified in order to increase taxes and recruit soldiers. So Guo Ma, together with the subordinate officers He Dian, Wang Clan, Wu Shu, Yin Xing and others, contacted the people and launched a mutiny, attacking and killing Guangzhou governor Yu Shuo and Nanhai prefect Liu Lue, and expelled Guangzhou governor Xu Qi. Guo Ma named himself the Governor of Jiao." </li> </ol>There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Guo Ma to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 07:46, 10 April 2024 (UTC) </li></ul>
 * Keep per Cunard. Meets WP:GNG. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:41, 10 April 2024 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.