Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Habilian Association


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. The reliability of the sources found have not been succesfully defended. J04n(talk page) 11:41, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Habilian Association

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Fails to meet WP:Notability. Nearly all sourcing is self-published from the Habilian Association and the rest comes from Iranian government-controlled media. No luck in finding any mentions in broader media or in neutral Iran-related books. Plot Spoiler (talk) 05:39, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Remark This is no longer valid. There are tons of sources, and Iranian government controlled media counts as a media source, since they are the only media sources in Iran. How can an organization that is mentioned thousands of times by Iran supporting sites, and called a front by the two leading Iranian resistance groups be called non-notable? The usual reason for using non-notability is to hide persons or groups with terrorist associations in the shadows where they will not be subject to scrutiny. Mark Dankof and Kourush Ziabari were also removed for "non notability" despite being featured by Iranian and pro-Iranian media, which are certainly RS for these authors, even if their information is pure obvious Iranian propoganda straight out of the ministry of disinformation. The only obvious reason would be to try to hide their obvious associations with the Iran regime as the mainstream media so far has not noticed them, primarily pro-Israel bloggers have spotted them. Redhanker (talk) 05:42, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep. It is notable precisely because it is supported primarily by Iranian government-controlled media and appears to be a part of a larger disinformation campaign, like Veterans Today which appears to be an outlet for Iranian media at least as part of its content. Web searching shows it is heavily referenced by pro-Iran pro-Palestine media outlets. All press in Iran is heavily government controlled, so its mention by Press TV and Fars news agencies makes it notable. Just because it hasn't been noted by western media doesn't mean nobody is noting it, and just because a media outlet is viewed by the west as pro-Iranian and anti-semtic and promoting conspiracy theories doesn't mean hundreds of websites amount to "nobody." There is a mountain of media and dis/information which is not noted by western media. Wikipedia covers a lot of media and individuals such as Veterans Today, Alex Jones and Jim Fetzer who spout pro-Iranian disinformation and anti-semitic conspiracy theories precisely because people object to them. That Iran is using this association to deflect blame from their own agents to allegedly western backed rebels is very notable because it obviously looks like an attempt at disinformation. People use WP as a resource to assess organizations such as the HA, and what their motive and objectives are. Redhanker (talk) 15:02, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * What you are describing is a clear violation of WP:No original research. If you are seeking to do original research, Wikipedia is not the right outlet. Plot Spoiler (talk) 15:38, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I've copied this from the talk section establishing anti-regime sources in addition to the large number of Iranian government and pro-IRanian media promoting the Habilian Association. If you object to the agenda of the Habilian Association, it would be better to incorporate these sources which claim that the HA is a front for Iranian intelligence agencies than to delete the article. Redhanker (talk) 19:33, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

These are pro-resistance pieces in addition to the plethora of Iranian media and pro-Iranian websites and organizations that promote the Habilian Association such as GlobalResearch which for some reason don't count towards the notability of an organization. Redhanker (talk) 19:30, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Iran Policy Committee: Iran intelligence agencies use the Habilian Association to accuse MEK of Iran-sponsored terrorism against American in Iraq, and Ministry of Intelligence and Security (MOIS) sends Habilian members to pose as disaffected former members of the MEK. 5 December 2010 Public Data to Complement Classified Intelligence—Assessing the Credibility of Sources about Alleged Terrorist Activities of the Mujahedeen-e-Khalq (MEK)/People’s Mojahedin  Organization of Iran (PMOI)  Raymond Tanter, President Iran Policy Committee (IPC)

"The Iranian regime used its so-called “Habilian Society ,” which is supposedly dedicated to families of martyrs of alleged terrorism practiced by the  MEK. Tehran’s goal is  to  misconstrue the Court’s discussion about Karbala as declassified news from the State Department and as evidence the MEK is involved in terrorist activities and has the capability and intention to commit terrorist acts. 35 36 The regime’s Ministry of Intelligence and Security (MOIS) sends members of the Habilian to European countries posing as disaffected former members of the MEK who are now working within a nongovernmental organization, the Habilian Society. The aim is to contact European parliamentarians and other officials to tarnish the image of the MEK."

Raymond Tanter calls the HS a " regime-sponsored group posing as a human-rights organization" which carries false Iranian stories blaming MeK involvement in attacks in which evidence points to Iranian sponsored terrorism Tehran's Anti-MeK Propaganda Machine Raymond Tanter

The MOIS also targets the American intelligence community. The ministry plants false stories in the media; then they are used by U.S. intelligence to justify a false narrative against the MeK. On September 12, 2007, the Mehr News Agency, a MOIS news outlet, announced that before one of the bombings in Karbala, closed-circuit cameras around the Imam Hossein shrine caught a woman and a youngster gathering information from various entrances of the shrine: “After their arrest, it became clear that they had been sent by the Mojahedin Khalq Organization [MeK] to locate ways to sneak into the shrine for terrorist operations, ”states Mehr. Iran’s Habilian Society, a regime-sponsored group posing as a human-rights organization, published a U.S. Federal Appeals Court’s description of declassified American documents. One carried Iranian stories alleging MeK involvement in Karbala.

[http://ncr-iran.org/en/news/iran-resistance/5686-edalat-associationa-front-organization-for-the-mullahs-ministry-of-intelligence-part-one The National Council of Resistance of Iran] states "In reality Habilian is the Office of Legal Mobilization against the PMOI (MEK) at the MOIS intelligence agency.”

The public face of this legal section (of the MOIS) was a so-called NGO entitled Habilian. Its members are claimed to be the children of those who the regime alleges were killed during the 1980’s confrontations with the PMOI. In reality, Habilian is the “Office of Legal Mobilization against the [MeK] PMOI at the MOIS.” Foreign Affairs Committee of the National Council of Resistance of IRan http://ncr-iran.org/en/news/iran-resistance/5686-edalat-associationa-front-organization-for-the-mullahs-ministry-of-intelligence-part-one

According to siteglimpse http://www.siteglimpse.com/irandidban.com habilian.com is linked to iran-interlink and negaheno.net which are fronts for Iranian intelligence:

irandidban.com links to iran-interlink.org habilian.com negaheno.net - iranian website

Professor Daniel M. Zucker in 2007 identifies iran-interlink and negaheno as run by Iranian intelligence: September 3, 2007 Source: Global Politician By: Professor Daniel M. Zucker - 9/3/2007 Disinformation Campaign in Overdrive: Iran’s VEVAK in High-Gear

"The materials disseminated on the Iran-Interlink site are all produced by VEVAK in Tehran.[xx] Iran-Interlink.org[xxi] is probably the most sophisticated of the regime's anti-resistance websites. Other sites include several that are disguised to look like resistance sites, such as www.mojahedin.ws[xxii], www.hambastegimeli.net[xxiii], www.iran-aawa.com[xxv], or neutral as www.perseetavenir.com[xxvi] and www.iranpeyvand.com, and those that clearly are anti-resistance, such as www.irandidban.com, www.theblackfile.com, www.pars-iran.com, www.nejatngo.org, and www.negaheno.net. Anyone associated with these websites should be considered a VEVAK agent or loyal supporter of the IRI regime."


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. &#9733;&#9734;  DUCK IS PEANUTBUTTER &#9734;&#9733; 09:11, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Terrorism-related deletion discussions. &#9733;&#9734;  DUCK IS PEANUTBUTTER &#9734;&#9733; 09:11, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Iran-related deletion discussions. &#9733;&#9734;  DUCK IS PEANUTBUTTER &#9734;&#9733; 09:11, 16 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete. Fails WP:NGO: "Information about the organization and its activities can be verified by multiple, third-party, independent, reliable sources." As far as I can tell, the only reliable source on this subject is a trivial mention in The National Interest which states that it is a fake human rights organization. The article cites self-published primary sources and the state-controlled Iranian press which, in my opinion, does not have a reputation for fact checking and accuracy. Perhaps others will disagree. Location (talk) 06:32, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
 * remark PressTV and Fars are absolutely reliable sources on the government's obvious propoganda and cover story that it is a victims organization. Similarly, anti-regime sources are reliable sources on their position that is an intelligence front. Deleting obviously notable subjects is a common tactic to keep intelligence disinformation operations and groups/individuals with ties to terrorist or terrorist states out of the light is a common tactic. Just because PressTV, Fars and Mehr and Veterans Today put out obviously unreliable information does not make them un-notable, or an unreliable source on their stated intentions. Otherwise, you would not be able to use official government news sources such as Tass, Pravda, or even pro-west outlets like Fox or CIA publicaions. Neutral Point of View means presenting both views (Iran says it is victim NGO, anti-regime says it is intelligence front), not removing both views. Redhanker (talk) 12:48, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment. Did you really just indicate that the nomination of this article is a "tactic to keep intelligence disinformation operations and groups/individuals with ties to terrorist or terrorist states out of the light"? Are you suggesting that the nominator is some sort of Iranian operative sent to remove information from Wikipedia? Are you nuts?! Location (talk) 19:53, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep It is not fair to judge an organization as being used by Iranian Intelligence agencies only because it is referenced by pro Iran Media outlets such as FNA and also due to reports mostly coming from the Mujahedin e Khalq Organization(MEK) and its American friends such as Iran Policy Committee (IPC). Well, the HA claims to be the representative of Iranian terror victims' families and it also claims those victims are assassinated by the MEK. So it is all clear why the Mujahedin e khalq is mutually accusing the Habilian Association of being run by the Iranian Intelligence services.Sinapoor (talk) 09:51, 21 January 2013 (UTC) — Sinapoor (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  MBisanz  talk 01:01, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

 
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  MBisanz  talk 03:08, 31 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Question. So let's put aside the sources that are definitely or arguably propagandistic/fictional/tendentious. What reliable sources are there? I notice some promising footnotes, but when I click on them and look, they either mention this organization only fleetingly or don't mention it at all. However, I haven't clicked on all of them. -- Hoary (talk) 03:05, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The blurb in The National Interest is all I have found: "Iran’s Habilian Society, a regime-sponsored group posing as a human-rights organization, published a U.S. Federal Appeals Court’s description of declassified American documents. One carried Iranian stories alleging MeK involvement in Karbala. Several state-run media reproduced the report." I also found very brief mentions in two articles linked to the National Council of Resistance of Iran (i.e., ), but neutrality concerns have me wondering if that could be considered a reliable source. Other than the primary source material, all other sources I have found are linked with Iran's state-controlled media. Location (talk) 04:29, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The National Interest articles though is an opinion piece, and by WP:NEWSORG, doesn't really fulfill WP:RS. Additionally, Raymond Tanter is a member of the Iran Policy Committee, which seeks to elevate the MEK as the primary opposition to the regime, which makes this source even more questionable. Plot Spoiler (talk) 05:04, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Didn't know that. Thanks! Location (talk) 05:10, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

National Council of Resistance of IRan, Iran Policy Committee, stopfundamentalism.com, accessmylibrary.com, BBC CNN, Federation of American Scientists, Islamic Republic News Agency, Mehr News Agency, Veterans Today Mark Dankof, UglyTruthPodcast, Fars News Agency, Tehran Times, wikileaks, Kourosh Ziabari, Franklin Lamb, Stephen Lendman, iran-interlink.org, Irandidban, uprootedpalestinian, OpedNews, terror-victims.com, irannewpearlharbor, themadjewess.com, shoah.org.uk Redhanker (talk) 15:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete This was mentioned at WP:RSN, and I'll cross-post what I wrote there. There's no coverage at all of this organisation in the New York Times, BBC News or academic papers available via Google Scholar or my university's online multi-journal search. The university search engine also provides coverage of news archives, and only news sources which report this organisation's claims are the Iranian Fars news agency and the "Asia News Monitor" which appears to be an aggregation source (it may be repeating the Fars articles). A single BBC monitoring service report describes the association as "an organization formed to launch a campaign against the presence of the Mojahedin-e Khalq Organization MKO - in Iraq" in parentheses as part of a summary of an Iranian news report. As such, I don't think that WP:ORG is met. Nick-D (talk) 05:22, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete. Not because it's not notable, or because it's not really what it claims to be, or because it's nefarious (one or more of which might be true), but simply because virtually nothing yet said about it (one way or another) has a reliable source, even after a protracted AfD debate. If there's much reliably sourced information later, an article can then be created. -- Hoary (talk) 06:12, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Move Habilian association may be largely ignored by western mainstream press, but it is a big issue for the Iranian government and resistance groups. Perhaps this should be moved to the People's Mujahedin of Iran article. Here is a list of western and official Iranian government news agencies and other widely published authors that have made note of the Habilian Association, with details in the collapsed section below. Even conspiracy theories get coverage in Wikipedia, but not a major Iranian NGO promoted heavily by every Iranian news outlet, and every Iranian-allied news outlet?


 * Remark This is ridiculous. The organization is reported by an OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT AGENCY and news outlets of MULTIPLE Iranian resistance organizations. The only reason editors are calling it non-notable is because they are ignoring BBC and CNN, even though PRESSTV is the Iranian equivalent to CNN. The Iranian media calls CNN and NYT a western disinformation outlet, does that mean they can't be used as RS? PressTV is certainly RS for the existence of the organization as well as its contributors. This is not NPOV which is neutral point of view. It is ironic that supporters of Iran do not allow the use of any Iranian government agencies or media to establish notability or RS for notability. Press TV is independent of Habilian even if both are controlled by the same Iranian government and disinformation department. Look at the list of sources above again. Habilian is used as the main source of charges that the MEK is a terrorist organization by the Iranian government. You can't say that because the Iranian government and Press TV promote unreliable conspiracy theories and propoganda that it is not notable. Nazi Germany and even Obama and Bush are said to promote unbelievable propoganda, but you can't say that they are not notable. iran-interlink.org and Irandidban are both operated by the Iranian government. Redhanker (talk)


 * Remark This is ridiculous. The organization is reported by an OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT AGENCY and news outlets of MULTIPLE Iranian resistance organizations. The only reason editors are calling it non-notable is because they are ignoring BBC and CNN, even though PRESSTV is the Iranian equivalent to CNN. The Iranian media calls CNN and NYT a western disinformation outlet, does that mean they can't be used as RS? PressTV is certainly RS for the existence of the organization as well as its contributors. This is not NPOV which is neutral point of view. It is ironic that supporters of Iran do not allow the use of any Iranian government agencies or media to establish notability or RS for notability. Press TV is independent of Habilian even if both are controlled by the same Iranian government and disinformation department. Look at the list of sources above again. Habilian is used as the main source of charges that the MEK is a terrorist organization by the Iranian government. You can't say that because the Iranian government and Press TV promote unreliable conspiracy theories and propoganda that it is not notable. Nazi Germany and even Obama and Bush are said to promote unbelievable propoganda, but you can't say that they are not notable. iran-interlink.org and Irandidban are both operated by the Iranian government. For an organization that is not notable, it is being noted by a lot of important Iranian government news agencies and a lot of websites. Redhanker (talk)

Iran resistance groups
 * National Council of Resistance of IRan Foreign Affairs Committee of the
 * Iran Policy Committee (IPC) http://www.iranpolicy.org/uploadedFiles/5DEC10_Public_Data_to_Complement_Classified_Intelligence_with_tables.pdf 5 December 2010 Public Data to Complement Classified Intelligence—Assessing the Credibility of Sources about Alleged Terrorist Activities of the Mujahedeen-e-Khalq (MEK)/People’s Mojahedin  Organization of Iran (PMOI)  Raymond Tanter, President Iran Policy Committee (IPC)
 * stopfundamentalism.com Why does Iran Ache For Camp Ashraf Destruction? * › News › IraqShareApr 19, 2011 – In a letter to Nuri al-Maliki by an Iranian Habilian Association, Fars News Agency on 9 April 2011, described the attack as, “A brave action that ...

Mainstream media and organizations
 * [BBC] considers IRNA a reliable government international report: Delisting MKO from terror list part of US "Iran campaign" - NGO chief. BBC Monitoring International Reports Text of report in English by Iranian official government news agency IRNA website Secretary-General of the Habilian Association (families of Iranian terror victims) Mohammad Javad Hasheminezhad said on Tuesday [30 October] that the US decision to delist Mojahedin Khalq Organization from the global terrorists is in line with Washington's Iran campaign.
 * CNN [http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-698021 .. out by a Ministry of Intelligence (MOIS) branch called the Habilian Association, led by a known Iranian regime henchmen ...
 * Federation of American Scientists [www.fas.org/irp/world/iran/mois-loc.pdf Iran's Ministry of Intelligence and Security: A Profile ]

Official Iranian News Agencies and affliated, with links to agencies with wikipedia articles
 * [IRNA]
 * Mehr News Agency www.irandidban.com/master-e.asp?ID=13687ShareIn an interview with Mehr News in Mashhad, Habilian Association's Executive Director, Mohammed Sanavi said: "The convention was mainly aimed at ...
 * Mark Dankof ugly truth broadcast PressTV contributor
 * Veterans Today The menacing plots of MKO terrorists for Iran. VT is another outlet for Iran's news agencies
 * PressTV - Two MKO battalions fuelling unrest in Syria: Report Director of the Habilian Association Seyyed Mohammad Javad Hasheminejad told Fars News Agency on Sunday th
 * Mark Dankof's Conversation with Iran's Habilian Association: Latest ...
 * Fars News Agency: Victims of Terrorism Blast MKO Leader's ...
 * Tehran Times www.tehrantimes.com TEHRAN – Interpol has issued arrest warrants for 12 leaders of the terrorist Mojahedin Khalq Organization, the Habilian Association website ..
 * wikileaks http://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/815300_irn-iran-middle-east-.html Right Group Urges Expulsion of MKO Members from IraqTEHRAN (FNA)-
 * Kourosh Ziabari (deleted as "not notable") Evidently spokesman for Ahmadinejad regime (PressTV, Veterans Today Iran) - The menacing plots of Mujahedin-e Khalq ...
 * Franklin Lamb (deleted as "not notable") Hezbollah spokesman, PressTV and counterpunch contributor The Menacing Plots of the MKO
 * Stephen Lendman (Veterans Today, PressTV contributor deleted and prevented from creation as not notable) evidently pro-Iran, Press TV reported that the Habilian Association human rights ...
 * iran-interlink.org (MOIS)
 * Irandidban site| (MOIS) Habilian S.G.: MKO members forced to start relocation

Note the pattern of deletion of people who are major contributors to Iranian (PressTV), Russian (RussiaToday) or pro-Iranian news agencies as "not notable"

pro-Iranian news sites with wikipedia articles
 * www.counterpunch.org The Menacing Plots of the MKO

pro-Iranian news sites already being used as RS references in Wikipedia or with articles
 * Israel–Pakistan relations References: http://uprootedpalestinians. blogspot. com/2012/08/pakistani-pilots-who-shot-down-10. html . http://www. paf. gov. pk/air_warriors. Press TV reported that the Habilian Association human rights
 * OpedNews Press TV reported that the Habilian Association human rights group said: "We have conclusive proof and documents showing that the MKO (Mujahedlin-e Organization) has a strong and significant presence in Syria."

pro-Iranian news sites that appear to be controlled by Iranian department of disinformation of MOIS english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9107125214Dec 8, 2012 – The Habilian Association, a human rights group formed of the families of 17,000 Iranian terror victims, sent a letter of protest to the French ...
 * terror-victims.com
 * /almasakinnewsagency.wordpress.com
 * irannewpearlharbour.wordpress.com/.../mark-dankofs-convers...Mar 3, 2012 – The Iran-based Habilian Association renews its conversation with American populist Right commentatorMark Dankof on the ...
 * themadjewess.com/.../obama-starts-war-with-syria-china-russia...ShareJun 11, 2012 – Director of the Habilian Association Seyyed Mohammad Javad Hasheminejad told Fars News Agency on Sunday that MKO terrorists, grouped ..
 * SHOAH
 * www.iran-si.com/vdccaxqs82bqe.y-2.htmlBy Habilian Association. MEK conducting special ops inside Syria. nejatngo.org, August 09 2012. Story Code: 160. While the anti-Assad rebels in Syria are

How in the world can an organization get so much coverage on the internet by pro-IRan and anti-regime groups and be considered non-notable by WP???? How can any organization supported by the Iranian government and Iranian media and pro-Iranian media not be considered RS for the existence of an organization that is thought to be a clandestine operation of the Iranian government? Redhanker (talk) 12:48, 1 February 2013 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.