Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hail to Thy Name So Fair


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   merge to East Carolina University. Ron Ritzman (talk) 03:24, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Hail to Thy Name So Fair

 * – ( View AfD View log )

No indication of notability, as mandated by WP:GNG. Fails WP:MUSIC as well. GrapedApe (talk) 04:10, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - WTH, is this gang up on me week? If a college song/alma mater isn't notable, then I suggest the offended party go to Category:American college songs as well.  P G Pirate  05:07, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS doesn't apply here, sorry. Jrcla2 (talk) 05:33, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, I'll be checking that category for other NN songs.--GrapedApe (talk) 12:44, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete Merge into East Carolina University. On a search for this song specifically I failed to find anything outside of ECU websites (unless you count mp3bear.com). Fails WP:MUSIC, but I still think it might be worth preserving in the main article. Jrcla2 (talk) 05:35, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Question. Hi Jrcla2. Out of curiosity, are you suggesting that we merge content that is not RS-supported? I mention this because this article lacks any refs at all, let alone RS refs. Many thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:32, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Epee. The basis for my own merge !vote was that I did see the alma mater on an official East Carolina University website, which is in fact a reliable source, but that was the extent of the coverage. Since it's minimally verifiable, I don't want to take an axe to it. I think there might be merits in its inclusion on the main article for the school but not on its own. I hope that answers your question. Jrcla2 (talk) 01:25, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I think I understand. So you are not suggesting that any we merge any text per se that is the article (and unreferenced); but rather that we redirect the name and reflect the alma mater, with what you found serving as a ref?  (That would affect whether we have to keep the old history, among other things).  Thanks for the clarification.  Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:32, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * So really what I'm suggesting is to redirect this article in question to a specific sub-section of East Carolina University for the alma mater, which would need to be made. Jrcla2 (talk) 01:46, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * This seems like an unlikely link or search item. I don't really see anything in Redirect that would apply to Hail to Thy Name So Fair .--GrapedApe (talk) 01:55, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * If the consensus is to delete this article, I will 100% back that, for the record. I just didn't want to be unnecessarily quick on !voting delete when there may be worthwhile reasons to keep it, except as a proper redirect. Jrcla2 (talk) 02:03, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I see no harm in that redirect.--Epeefleche (talk) 02:39, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:44, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 18:44, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. Paul McDonald (talk) 01:53, 12 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep Normally we find that major college/university songs are notable at least as a stub. While I admit there are very few available sources online, I'm reasonably confident that offline independent reliable sources can be found.  The information is verifiable.--Paul McDonald (talk) 02:05, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll admit that I'm dumbfounded. I've never, ever, heard that we find college songs per se notable.  Please, add these offline independent sources. --GrapedApe (talk) 03:31, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Who ever heard of the Rutgers fight song either? Where do you draw the line? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:25, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sure the people at Rutgers have, for starters, but we're not discussing the merits of that article at this AFD. However, WP:IDONTKNOWIT covers your argument:"arguments that state that because a subject is lesser known or even completely unknown outside a given locality does not mean the subject is not notable."--Paul McDonald (talk) 11:37, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * And the people at ECU have heard of their own fight song too. What does that have to do with anything? You can't single out one school's non-notable song and claim that another non-notable song somehow gets spared the axe. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:25, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Red herring. We need sources, per WP:GNG, to prove notability.  There's no credible claim of notability in the article or by Paul McDonald.--GrapedApe (talk) 12:26, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, you've proven the point. The Bells Must Ring has no claim of notability whatsoever. Notable for nothing. Unless you're claiming it's notable just because it's Rutgers? Big freakin' hypocritical deal. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:22, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, I don't think anyone has proven any point here, except I think we've successfully covered that it is pointless to argue about the notability of a song primarily about Rutgers at discussion about a song from East Carolina. You are correct that bringing up the Rutgers fight song is a "red herring" as it has seriously taken this discussion off the track of the original intent.  I'm not sure why it was brought in to begin with, but I wish we'd keep the focus on the issue at hand.--Paul McDonald (talk) 01:19, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I would be interested in the basis for the statement: "Normally we find that major college/university songs are notable at least as a stub." And Paul -- since you used that as your rationale, I'm confused as to why you are bringing to task others for what we do with other fight songs. --Epeefleche (talk) 01:24, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * See Fight song, and all its sub-categories. I don't understand why you're coming after me for bringing up Rutgers--I didn't bring up Rutgers.--Paul McDonald (talk) 04:04, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I checked what you referred me to. They indicate instances of some articles re some college fight songs.  But they do not state, as you did, that keeping them is "normal".  And the instances indicated seem far fewer than the number of schools that I expect have fight songs.  How do those instances lead to your statement that it is normal to keep such articles?  And I never said you brought up Rutgers.  I said -- quoted, actually -- you bringing up the notion that we should look to what we do with other major college/university songs.  And then brought to task another editor for doing precisely what you had done -- by focusing on another major college/university song.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:38, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The other editor did not do what I suggested. I looked at a large group, of which some have been through AFD and remarked that normally these AFDs result in keeping the article.  The other user picked one specific article that is presently poorly sourced and poorly written and attempted to use that one example to represent the larger group.  Hence, "red herring" -- it doesn't apply.  Here's a cheesy example of the fallacy:  1) I don't know if this cheeseburger will taste good.  2)  Generally cheeseburgers taste good.  3)  Here's a different cheeseburger that tastes terrible.  4)  Okay, this cheeseburger must be terrible too.--Paul McDonald (talk) 05:15, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Did you only look at those that survived Afd? Or also look at those that failed AfD?--Epeefleche (talk) 05:20, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't recall any that were deleted in AFD. There probably are some.--Paul McDonald (talk) 05:29, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I wonder whether ... had you looked only at those AfDs that resulted in the articles being deleted, you might not have reached precisely the opposite conclusion. Obviously, you can't look only at articles that survived AfD, and conclude from that that all articles in that subject area survive AfD.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:14, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * merge There is really no justification for a separate article here; the song is not that well known except to the alumni of that particular college, which is the standard I'd use for articles like this, and there's nothing much we can say, except link to an anthology and a web site.  DGG ( talk ) 06:49, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * If sources can't be found, Merge to East Carolina University. Patken4 (talk) 21:55, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.