Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hands of God


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   Redirect and split. Moreschi (talk) 13:18, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Hands of God

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Can find no reliable sources for this. I looked at the Polish article but sources were either no longer available even through the Internet archive, a forum (www.rbi.webd.pl) or didn't mention this pictogram. Even if real, which I can't verify,doesn't seem notable Dougweller (talk) 13:05, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep for now Ok, Delete per dab below.  Thanks for that. Previously on AFD: Looking at the Polish EL that does work, and searching on the Polish term, there is clearly something there. I suspect we may not be using the correct English term, but a straight translation of the Polish/Russian one.  Any symbol this distinctive (though variable) that goes back to prehistoric art is probably notable.  Expert help needed.  This item has been misclassified as science and technology - it should be visual art and whatever mythology is. Johnbod (talk) 13:31, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * CommentThat's just the problem, I can't find any evidence that this goes back to prehistoric art. This seems to be the correct classification for archaeology, which is the subject that encompasses prehistoric art. As an alleged prehistoric pictogram, neither visual art nor mythology would be the correct classification. I searched .pl Google books on the Polish term and couldn't find anything . Your link shows images but nothing that seems useful. Dougweller (talk) 13:38, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The picture of the pot here, which crops up elsewhere, looks prehistoric to me. If this is the normal classification for archaeology, it shouldn't be, & prehistoric art, to state the bleeding obvious, is also "encompassed" by visual art. Please add to at least that list. Johnbod (talk) 13:42, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I have found a claim that it was found in the village of Białej, near Łodzi, and is 5th century CE. Another issue of course is whether it is notable. I can't find pictures obviously not from that site, but I presume it exists. But is it notable? Or just another example of something? First of course, we need a reliable source, and the main site is an advocate one with no dating or anything for it. Dougweller (talk) 14:58, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:54, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions.  —  Lady  of  Shalott  03:48, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions.  —  Lady  of  Shalott  03:51, 23 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment A Google Books search on the Polish term in quotation marks yields 599 results. I am unable to evaluate them, but maybe we can get someone here who can. Lady  of  Shalott  03:57, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Poland-related deletion discussions.  —  Lady  of  Shalott  04:03, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions.  —  Lady  of  Shalott  04:04, 23 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment Using Chrome they are all translated, eg. "he right hand of God the word meaning only closed churches" ".. I want you in our prayers during this person released and placed it in God's hands" ". the kingdom in the hands of God" Dougweller (talk) 05:20, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * delete as unreferenced. People can always recreate it if they find some actual reference. In the meantime, this is just disinformation. I think this is a meme coined on the internet by Slavic neopaganism. Searching for the term does nothing, as it simply means "hands of god" and does exist as an expression in Slavic languages, unrelated to this alleged pagan symbol. If people want to discuss the art or the pottery of Bronze- or Iron-Age Poland, the article at Bronze- and Iron-Age Poland would be a good place for that. If Doug's research is correct, the pot would probably belong to the Pomeranian culture, and if any actual literature discussing this specific pot is found, it can always be added there. Until there isn't any sort of literature to go on, I am not sure why we are even having this discussion. --dab (𒁳) 13:35, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * ah, I see what you did there Doug, you google-translated the Polish caption at File:ReceBogaSwargi.svg
 * Symbol z naczynia kultowego z Białej k/Łodzi zwany potocznie Rękami Boga.
 * As far as I can make out, this means "symbol on the cult vessel of Biała near Łódź, popularly known as 'Hands of God'". I suppose "Biała  near  Łódź" might be Biała, Zgierz County, although there are other candidates. And it's not like we have any sort of reference even for the "Biała near Łódź" bit. --dab (𒁳) 13:53, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

right, based on the information above, it turns out that the pot is notable. See this and this (p. 250). it turns out that this vessel was excavated just before the start of WWII, at a cremation cemetery of the 2nd to 3rd centuries AD, at "Biala, near Lódz". When the Nazis occupied Lódz (and renamed it to Litzmannstadt), a representation of the vessel became the new coat of arms of the town, supposedly as evidence "of the proto-Germanic character of central Poland". The Nazi medallion reproduced by Mikolajczyk shows the vessel, together with the text "EWIGER DEUTSCHER OSTEN / Urnenfund bei Litzmannstadt, 100 n. Z.". So the pot can be discussed in two contexts, Przeworsk culture and Lodz. To be fair, Nazis or no Nazis, the historical context of the 2nd century in central Poland is that of the Marcomannic Wars and the beginning of the Germanic migrations, and it is altogether likely that the pot and its design is associated with the early Vandals. --dab (𒁳) 14:09, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Andrej Mikolajczyk, Didactic presentations of the past: some retrospective considerations in relation to the Archaeological and Ethnographical Museum, Lódz, Poland.


 * Now I have researched this and fixed the article, I suggest a split into Native Polish Church (for the neopagan symbol), Przeworsk culture (for the archaeological artefact) and Lodz (for its use by the Nazis). --dab (𒁳) 14:50, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * sounds good to me. Thanks again for untangling this. Johnbod (talk) 19:09, 23 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Fine, I'm happy with this but no time to do anything official even if keyboard would stop jumping around and deleting. Sorry. Dougweller (talk) 16:18, 24 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Dbachmann -- Your upload File:Medallion Urnenfund bei Litzmannstadt.png is rather small and blurry, but there's nothing in it which suggests it contains the elaborated symbol File:ReceBogaSwargi.svg (as opposed to the basic version of the symbol), so some of your edits are quite confusing... AnonMoos (talk) 11:01, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.