Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hardline (subculture) (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. postdlf (talk) 05:28, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Hardline (subculture)
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No evidence of notability. The entire article (which is very long given the obscurity of the topic) is based on one source, and much of it is written as original research. Delete. DogsHeadFalls (talk) 06:32, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: Repaired incomplete nomination czar   &middot;   &middot;  07:48, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Popular culture-related deletion discussions.  czar   &middot;   &middot;  07:50, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Philosophy-related deletion discussions.  czar   &middot;   &middot;  07:50, 3 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment: The one reference used in the article is dead, and it probably didn't satisfy WP:RS anyway. Freikorp (talk) 09:39, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete: This page has been on my watch-list for almost 5 years now, and has been tagged the whole time. My guess is nobody has improved it because the subject is so little known/un-notable, but that of course is secondary to the issue that I can't find reliable sources to help the article either. Freikorp (talk) 08:27, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete The one source seems to be a website or blog which wouldn't be considered reliable here. Nothing else to say without potentially hurting people's feelings. Borock (talk) 15:26, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep or Merge into Vegan Reich and Straight Edge. Obviously, the article itself lacks citations and is far too long. However, I can confirm as a straight edger and active member of the hardcore punk scene that Hardline was a notable movement/philosophy in the straight edge/hardcore scene of the 90s. It is mostly associated with zine writer/hardcore musician Sean Muttaqi and his band Vegan Reich. Vegan Reich were notable for having put out a "Hardline manifesto" in one of their releases.

After a quick search, I was able to find a few references to Hardline that at the very least mention it and its notability within the scene:
 * http://subcultureslist.com/straight-edge/militant-straight-edge/
 * http://sparksofdissent.blogspot.com/2010/09/interview-with-sean-muttaqi-vegan-reich.html
 * http://www.punknews.org/article/35847/vegan-reich-reactivating
 * http://www.muslimsforjesus.org/Musicians/Vegan%20Reich/Vegan%20Reich.htm

Perhaps Hardline doesn't warrant its own article, but I believe that it is notable as a part of straight edge history. I believe that the article should be trimmed down to more basic content with appropriate citations. At the very least, the info should be merged into a section of Straight Edge (perhaps a section discussing the militant sub-movements of the 90s like Hardline), as well as an article on Vegan Reich, which needs to be created. The citations I listed would be a great start for all of the above tasks. Wall Screamer (talk) 19:59, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Two of those sources are blogs, and one is Sean Muttaqi's personal website, therefore not independent. The first source listed may or may not be reliable, but barely mentions the subculture. I have created a page for Vegan Reich and ask that the information from the Hardline article be incorporated into that article.DogsHeadFalls (talk) 21:07, 3 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep See
 * for citations.-- Guerillero &#124;  My Talk  22:33, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * for citations.-- Guerillero &#124;  My Talk  22:33, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * for citations.-- Guerillero &#124;  My Talk  22:33, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * for citations.-- Guerillero &#124;  My Talk  22:33, 3 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Note to closing admin: Nom, DogsHeadFalls, has now been indef'd for sock-puppetry. Stalwart 111  04:55, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep - The sourcing showing in this piece is abysmal, but as Wall Screamer and Guerillero indicate (and there is no doubt more out there), this is a legitimate encyclopedic topic with multiple pieces of independently-published coverage. Passes GNG. The deficiencies of the article are an editing matter, not a notability matter. Carrite (talk) 04:49, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The other potentially valid result would be a merger to straight edge. Hardline was (is?) an almost neo-fascist offshoot of that philosophy. It was a 1990s cultural sub-grouping, in essence. Carrite (talk) 04:52, 6 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep - I tried to dig up the source in the article, archive.org doesn't have it, but it was a forum article so I doubt it was an RS anyways. Other sources exist and it is possible to improve it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:07, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, L Faraone  01:34, 11 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep - per Wall Screamer and Guerillero. Robman94 (talk) 20:59, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep. Hardline is a notable offshoot within hardcore. The article's current references and those provided by Guerillero make this pass WP:GNG. Gobōnobō  + c 02:13, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.