Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Harold Grocott


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep as improved. bd2412 T 02:59, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Harold Grocott

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Playing in the Empire Games doesn't meet WP:NSPORTS, but worse, I can't verify that he played. We have a source that says that a H. Grocott (presumably this one, though not certain, could e.g. be his brother Horace Grocott) left for the Games, but the other source actually reporting on the games doesn't mention him as part of the team (source gives by name the four team players and the one solo player). If that source is correct, a G. R. Scott played at the Games instead.

None of the sources are indepth reliable sources about Harold Grocott, but passing mentions or primary sources. Fram (talk) 13:51, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 13:59, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 14:00, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 14:00, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New Zealand-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 14:00, 19 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment It would be easy to misread a cursive Grocott as Grscott. I might see what I can find, although if the Empire Games doesn't meetWP:NSPORTS (surely it would be equivalent to the Commonwealth Games, where that is included in WP:NSPORTS?), there might not be much point. RebeccaGreen (talk) 15:45, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete. I am happy with the nominators summary of the refs and I can find no new information, big fan of the Grscott mix up idea. However, if he did represent his country that might be notable under the spirit of WP:NSPORTS (as I could not find the lawn bowls Empire games subsection). Hit a paywall with this pages ref, Lawn Bowls at the 1934 British Empire Games (Dushan Jugum (talk) 23:57, 19 February 2019 (UTC)).
 * Keep. After new work by Paora, but mostly there are so many notable sportspeople with pages who have never represented their country. (Dushan Jugum (talk) 10:22, 20 February 2019 (UTC)).


 * Keep. I've added further references that show that "Harold Grocott" was the H. Grocott that competed at the 1934 British Empire Games:, , . Clearly it wasn't his brother Horace, as Horace's entry in the Dictionary of New Zealand Biography shows that Horace was living in South Canterbury at the time, not Auckland, and it would be expected participation in the British Empire Games would be included in his DNZB entry had it been the case. The one reference naming G.R. Scott as the fourth member of the New Zealand foursome in 1934 is clearly a typo or mistranscription, as all the other references name him as either H. Grocott or Harold Grocott. As mentioned by , it is easy to see how Grocott in cursive script could be seen as G.R. Scott. WP:NSPORTS is not helpful as it only mentions the Commonwealth Games (formerly known as the British Empire Games) in relation to five particular sports (namely athletics, badminton, gymnastics, rugby sevens, and triathlon), but I'm sure that nobody is suggesting that the Empire / Commonwealth Games are not notable. In this case, we need to consider WP:SPORTSPERSON, which states that, "A sportsperson is presumed to be notable if the person has actively participated in a major amateur or professional competition". Clearly the Empire / Commonwealth Games is a major amateur competition, and indeed until the advent of the World Bowls Championship in 1966, it was the highest level international competition for lawn bowls. Paora (talk) 10:15, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment. Thanks for the sourcing showing that he (or a namesake, which is less likely) indeed competed. However, that doesn't change the problem that there are no reliable sources giving significant attention to Harold Grocott, only passing mentions (e.g. for his Empire Games appearance). This Wikipedia article is apparently the first time someone has written more about him than one or two lines, and that is not the role of Wikipedia. Fram (talk) 10:38, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I see two readings of the guide lines: 1: The person must pass in-depth coverage, in theory, one day (if we had read every book in the world etc.) and all other guidelines are only hints towards that. 2: They are “presumed notable” if they have in-depth coverage or they have done one of the other requirements (have a hit record, a fancy academic award, represent country at big event). I am divided on which Wikipedia should be, but I am clear on what Wikipedia really is, I would guess we would need to delete about 10,000 pages from the NZ project alone with reading 1, with reading 2 we still have a lot of work to do, but are going in the right direction. (Dushan Jugum (talk) 19:47, 20 February 2019 (UTC)).


 * Keep There may be no specific guidelines for the sport of bowls, but based on other WP:NSPORTS guidelines, I would say that he would be notable as he competed in the Empire Games. There are many articles about sportspeople with less sourcing than this one. RebeccaGreen (talk) 08:02, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep There isn't any doubt that Harold Grocott was at the Empire Games because contemporary newspapers reported that. There are numerous sources on Papers Past including photos of the New Zealand team. (and now that I've had a closer look at the article I see that Paora has already added an external link to that photo; pure coincidence that we both picked the Northern Advocate as the photo appeared in many newspapers)  Schwede 66  19:39, 22 February 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.