Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hartley Jackson (3rd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. ‑Scottywong | [comment] || 07:34, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Hartley Jackson
AfDs for this article: 
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Declined speedy due to "claims of notability postdating prior afd". This would mean the coaching at the WWE Performance Centre, which contained no notable events and therefore seeks to inherit notability from the WWE PC. Leithwei notes and acting credits are wholly not notable. Most titles are not notable and the ones that are also seek to inherit notability. Similar issues were noted in the previous AfD that resulted in delete. Fails WP:ENTERTAINER for the wrestling and the acting and fails WP:ATHLETE for Lethwei. Addicted4517 (talk) 08:40, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 08:47, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Wrestling-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 08:47, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 08:47, 11 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete: Reading the Wrestling notability essay it seems he scores notability for his time as coach and producer for WWENXT at WWE Performance Center. It seems that none of the Australian wrestling championships are mentioned in the notability essay, displaying bias against Oceania/South Asian wrestling. Until such time as this notability guideline is updated, the article fails.  --Whiteguru (talk) 11:13, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

*Keep: Please give me some time work on the notability essay which will include updated information on his Australian wrestling championships. I am trying to source all the relevant information over the next week along with the sources. I believe there is notability for the time as coach and producer in WWE. Also for the championships from both Australia and Japan, plus the coaching and contributions to Australian wrestling. --Jammo85 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 04:31, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
 * That's not a valid argument for Keep. Please also provide more sources as indicated in my changes and fact tags. You need to prove how Jackson is notable in his coaching stint in WWE by providing notable events while in that capacity. If you do not that is a fail of said notability. Also please prove his Australian title victories are notable (none of said titles are notable so you have a big problem there). Some notes on your previous sourcing - never use Cage Match for anything other than match results (the Iron Man claim requires something more specific than just the result of the match) and The Weebly website is a fan site and not reliable by default. Also - you used Word Press again and you can't do that as I said. Someone else also took Fandom off and rightly so. Addicted4517 (talk) 06:54, 13 September 2020 (UTC)


 * It's pretty clear that the notability essay doesn't help. Zero1 isn't listed, and there is a reason for that - it's not workable by itself. That's the point of the essay. It's the same with other promotions. I can tell you that notable experience is not essential in being a coach anywhere let alone WWE. He applied and got the job just like anyone else with just experience - notable or otherwise. As far as I know, there is nothing notable during his coaching tenure and that's partly why I nominated this for deletion. You need a specific event that was notable in itself and specifically details Jackson's direct involvement from independent reliable sources. I can tell you now - there aren't any. You've also added sources that are not reliable and I'm about to remove them, and the podcast as well as that is a blatant case of inheriting notability and name checking. Oh, and local newspapers are not substantive and therefore can not be used. You need mainstream sources. Addicted4517 (talk) 08:28, 17 September 2020 (UTC)


 * I have listed all the sources I can find online and added the citations to the areas you requested. (**Edit** I am looking through more sources and information online though Wrestling Observer and other reliable websites listed in which I'll update over the weekend **End Edit**) As for other citations and inheriting notably sources, I was using other pro wrestler pages as a guideline that have done the same thing, there are a lot out there with far less notability from both Australia, Europe and the USA who cite sources that inherit notability, but their pages remain. Again my first article and its a learning process so I want to better understand for future reference. I am wondering in your opinion, what makes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Bownds, another Australia pro wrestler notable in this instance, or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Brooks_(wrestler) notable? I am curious to learn, as I used these articles as a starting point. I want to further understand what is needed so I can better my articles so they don't get cited for deletion, but some with less history, less traveled, less information, no citations or far less sources still remain online? And what is the reason Zeor1 not listed in the notability essay? What is notable seems very subjective, especially between some of the companies that ware listed and not listed. Thank you.--Jammo85 (talk)
 * Bownds worked for Dragon Gate (listed in the essay) and had an NWA World Title shot. Brooks - I argued for the deletion of that some time ago and got shouted down over sourcing. Since the argument he has joined Ring of Honor and would have had a match at the Anniversary show this year but for COVID-19. Do NOT use other wrestler's articles as a guide. The guide is policy guidelines like the ones I used in my nomination and consensus. No one has supported you yet and there's a basic reason for that. Jackson is not notable. You've made some other mistakes which I am about to correct - usage of other unreliable sources and sources that don't make the claims noted. Also, stop using emotive adjectives (ie "famed") without an independent back up. That's why I have already removed uncited material from his coaching section. Clearly you are a big fan of his and that is clouding your judgement. You think he is notable, but you are yet to provide the smoking gun that proves he is who you claim he is. Addicted4517 (talk) 00:17, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
 * This is where it gets confusing. With Bownds if you are basing it off the notability essay then it fails notability? His Dragon Gate appearance was for three matches (in which the matches are not referenced or cited from a source?), not consecutive for 3 months as the as the essay says, or held a championship on that list. He just had a NWA World title shot (which is not referenced or cited from a source?). His article also contains a lot of inheriting notability and name checking with who he was on events with etc? So that's why it gets confusing to me, as Jackson has worked for NJPW, the WWE and had an NWA World Tag title shot (all referenced)? I do think Bownds is notable as I know his history, but I just want to be clear with the articles, as it seems subjective for some articles over others. Thank you for your information in regards to those articles and the fixes. I agree the Adam Brooks article should remain as I'd like to contribute to Brooks' page in the future. --Jammo85 (talk)
 * Jackson did not wrestle for WWE so strike that claim out. NWA World Tag Team title is not the NWA World title. Aside from that, no more comparisons. Treat those separately otherwise you'll make mistakes, and if you make too many of the same mistakes you may have trouble maintaining the assumption of good faith in your editing. For the record, Greg was with Dragon Gate longer than that and also had a couple of regulars there come to Australia. Addicted4517 (talk) 08:26, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ~ Amkgp  💬  15:24, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Weak delete. I could not establish notability per WP:BASIC or WP:ENTERTAINER. The nominee's name is very rarely mentioned beyond noticing that he will fight a certain person in a certain event, even in the japanese media. The most reliable, independent source I found in japanese was, which is fine because it focus on Hartley's appearance in a movie, and it's an independent source. But there are too few sources like that. I do appreciate 's efforts in contributing a lot to the article, but unless we have more coverage of the subject by more independent sources, the article unfortunately does not meet Wikipedia's guidelines.  Walwal20  talk ▾ contribs 00:00, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you . I appreciate the feedback and thank you for the help. --Jammo85 (talk)


 * Keep: really think he should have a page just based on my own opinion I know wiki has a policy but he's a Australian wrestling legend The preceding comment was added by Pidzz 11:12, 24 September 2020 (UTC)


 * FWIW, this is an invalid vote per WP:PPOV. Prove he is a legend. Reality check - he's not. Addicted4517 (talk) 05:20, 25 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep per WP:ENTERTAINER criterion 1 and possibly also criterion 3, and also WP:PWBIO, though this is just an WP:ESSAY and whose list is largely incomplete. Changing my vote per my re-assessment of sources and WP:ENTERTAINER. Criterion 1 reads: "Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions". I'll leave the english content aside, as you can easily find/read them; in japanese we have     and numerous mentions in Zero1 sources, which are not independent, but still relevant to establish appearance in stage performances. These sources talk about his appearances in multiple events. Whether these stage performances are notable might still be in question, but he participated in many nation-scoped competitions (and one intercontinental ), so there is plenty of reason to believe they are indeed notable. Overall, based on what I found, it is in my understanding that these events are notable within the pro-wrestling world. Therefore, I consider that he meets WP:ENTERTAINER criterion 1. Besides that, I think I'd also add that googling "Hartley Jackson" and "ハートリー・ジャクソン" for images yields many results of him (many videos too), most of which on unreliable sources such as blogs and social media. This indicates fame as an entertainer, and we can even argue WP:ENTERTAINER criterion 3 here; the fact that he has performed in multiple countries  helps that point of view, as he would be merely a local personality if he did not attract fans to the shows. Best,  Walwal20  talk ▾ contribs 06:38, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of japan-related deletion discussions.  Walwal20  talk ▾ contribs 06:55, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Note first that the seventh link is from an unreliable source, both in terms of the site itself (Word Press) and in terms of the content as it would be subject to pro wrestling embellishment. The claim that the listings at the essay that has been referenced many times are incomplete is in itself subject to debate, and my argument would be that it is complete for the purposes of notability - especially as it relates to Australia. Looking for images is a weak argument that requires written context for which there is very little from independent reliable sources. The rules of BLP's are very strict in this regard. As a person familiar with the pro-wrestling world, the assertion that the Japanese links provides reason to believe in the existence of notability is highly questionable. I also can't believe you referenced the Pro Wrestling Fandom - the epitome of embellishment and WP:PROMO. Performing in multiple countries would not count anyway if he wrestled for non notable promotions, which is the case here. I would therefore dispute the claim to a pass on criteria 1 of WP:ENTERTAINER. You would need to provide independent reliable sources to back this assertion up. Addicted4517 (talk) 08:46, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * A few things:
 * We're not discussing "significant coverage from reliable sources independent from the subject". We are discussing whether these tournaments happened or not.
 * After some investigation, I found the official website for the intercontinental championship which reads: ハートリー・ジャクソン（NWAインターコンチネンタルタッグ王者）, that is, "Hartley Jackson (current king of the NWA intercontinental tag)".
 * This information was also already listed in Intercontinental_Tag_Team_Championship_(Zero1). Since it is not properly sourced, I will do so now.
 * Still in Intercontinental_Tag_Team_Championship_(Zero1), doesn't it seem weird that most names there have Wikipedia articles? Why would we delete only Hartley's?
 * Lastly, please don't make me feel like I'm doing all the investigative work without equivalent effort from your part.
 * Best,  Walwal20  talk ▾ contribs 15:27, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * "We are discussing whether these tournaments happened or not is another invalid argument and also trying to devalue the primary rule of WP:BLP in the process. The references to the Zero 1 title are another case of inheriting notability not to mention a version of "what about this article" (AKA these wrestlers have held the title as well). Those other wrestlers are notable despite holding that title, not because of it. This is about the person, not the title in other words. And it's funny you claim I haven't done research, and yet I am easily able to refute your points. My nomination is based in the very research you claim I have not done. I maintain my position and you are yet to provide a valid argument to the contrary. Addicted4517 (talk) 05:01, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I believe I went over the top with the last item I gave, so I'd like to say I'm really sorry for that. Also, I appreciate that you are working on improving the article by removing undue sources and non-WP:NPOV statements.  Walwal20  talk ▾ contribs 15:32, 27 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep As per WP:ENTERTAINER criterion 1 and criterion 3. As the subject has had significant roles in stage performances, or other production. You can link this directly to professional wrestling events and performances, some related in this article. In criterion 3, Jackson has made unique, prolific or innovative contributions to a field of entertainment. Entertainment meaning that of pro wrestling. Jackson has not only competed for over 20 years, but has coached talent locally and worldwide, even for the largest company listed in WP:PWBIO WWE and WWENXT and has many supporters of this. He has also made considerable and prolific and innovative contributions to the very undervalued Australian wrestling community by bringing more international experience back to coach others after his excursions. Along with coaching and producing WWE talent with his skills also falls under criterion 3. Wrestling is also considered creative, especially the training and event aspect, so its possible WP:ARTIST WP:CREATIVE criterion 1 can come into play here as it states the person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors, in which case for Jackson is true in the professional wrestling world. He is regarded as a very important figure and regarded to be Australia's top trainer that is even cited by a reliable source in PWTORCH. He is also widely cited by his peers, successors in interviews and statements, some of which are included in the article. He has fought for AND held notable championships that are listed in Wikipedia articles as notable championships. This should NOT be included as inheriting notability, because winning a championship is a notable accomplishment, especially both local and international championships. As per WP:PWBIO He was with not only signed with WWE, but also to NJPW. I understand it was not as a wrestler for WWE, but as a coach and producer where he is able to give innovative contributions to signed talent through his coaching and producing of events. But as a wrestler for NJPW, its sourced he was attached to NJPW in LA from December 2005 to moving on to NJPW Japan ending July 2006. Even though it was a different country, NJPW still organized events at the LA Dojo and the events in Japan, making it in line with the WP:PWBIO where Jackson consistently appeared for NJPW over the course of three months. This covers many bases for notability in that criteria. WP:SPORTSPERSON can include his fight in Lethwei, as a sportsperson is presumed to be notable if the person has actively participated in a major amateur or professional competition. Jackson participated in Lethwei in Japan and it was a major professional competition held at the Korakuen Hall fighting venue in Japan. The company ILFJ signed a broadcasting deal with MNTV (Myanmar National TV) for events to be aired in Myanmar with livestreaming of events available in Japan on AbemaTV and FITETV. Thanks --Jammo85 (talk)
 * I have removed material for the reasons in the edit summaries, including one claim that I am directly challenging due to a subscriber only source (Wrestling Observer) that I consider to be totally incorrect and requiring a public source; that being "Hartley Jackson became a key figure in Australian wrestling". He is not and never has been. Cage Match only provides one match in New Japan which is nowhere near the three month requirement and that site is reliable for match results particularly for NJPW. There was no source even before my edits from PW Torch. It is well known that Jackson was NOT a member of TMDK and that Cage Match is unreliable on this point. Everything else you have stated here is either personal opinion or inheriting notability as before, except for Lethwei which is not listed at all anywhere in WP:SPORTSPERSON so as he has not won a title and further has only had one match that is hardly notable either. Addicted4517 (talk) 12:17, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * So cagematch is reliable when it's positive for your source, but unreliable when it positive for mine? That is interesting. Its well known that Jackson is not a member of TMDK? Not well known by whom, what is your source saying he is NOT a member? Articles dislike youtube, twitter citations for references etc I understand that in regards now to a wikipedia article, but it's live proof that Jackson is a member of TMDK along with links to physical events where he is a member event speaking as a TMDK member. The MCW Youtube along with their VIMEO online library of events from MCW vs TMDK in 2016 backs this up - https://twitter.com/mcitywrestling/status/740350703919464448 - https://www.cagematch.net/?id=29&nr=1293&page=2 - https://drawingheatblog.wordpress.com/tag/tmdk/ - http://prowrestlingguerrilla.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3596&start=1240 - https://theringsidereviewvic.wordpress.com/2016/03/07/mcw-ascension-2016/ - https://411mania.com/wrestling/furious-zero1-new-years-dream-series-2017-review/ - I've researched and its even stated by members who created TMDK on their own personal social media accounts that Jackson is a member of TMDK, even though that cant be referenced. So to say its well known that he is NOT a member is just untrue, where as you could say there is not enough reliable sources and even try to help find something (even if the outcome is that you cannot find any, but there is stuff out there). Also how do you know Hartley Jackson has not been a key figure in Australian wrestling, when he clearly has been by his history, sources and citations in the article. What I try to write in the article is not a personal opinion, its what I have gathered and observed from online sources, live events and history research and interviews. Yes some material and citations may not be up to scratch, but I am trying, which is why there is other editor help. I have tried to cite completely everything that I have written for this article. Cheers. --Jammo85 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:18, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * , overall I believe the article is good. Also overall I agree with 's edits/reverts. Some sources did not directly back the surrounding sentence; that is, it required some search within the source in order to find the validation; I redirected some sources to better sites in this sense. The article at this point includes a decent amount of detail; I wouldn't say it has WP:Too much detail, but it is on the borderline. I suggest the focus is shifted towards improving the article, as some statements seem a little bit off to me, like the fact that South Australian Serial Killers is another name to the The Mighty Don't Kneel group, which is not true (I clarified this in the article). There is also still some work to do to achieve a neutral point of view (WP:NPOV). Best,  Walwal20  talk ▾ contribs 15:42, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for that. All your help on this article is much appreciated and thank you for the information. Also thanks to for your help with edits/reverts. I am trying to get the best to understanding for the article and you've all provided valuable input and information. Cheers! --(talk)Jammo85 (talk) 16:48, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Let me make this clear first of all. The formal source list states with regard to Cage Match; "Strictly used for match results and not other information." That is what I have done, so you can not use it to prove Jackson was a member of TMDK, and those other sources are all unreliable - I already put down Word Press before, you never use a forum as a source and Twitter can only be used for verified accounts and even then it is discouraged. 411mania is considered only marginally reliable and needs a reliable source to back it up. There is not one reliable independent source that confirms that Jackson was a member of TMDK. IIRC this was argued about on the talk page of the article before it's previous deletion and consensus was achieved in that regard as it being falsely reported. I suspect this was simply because Jonah Rock was a member and fans just made the connection purely because of the formation of the SA Serial Killers. It is not up to me to prove he wasn't a mmeber. You can't prove a negative. It's up to you to prove he was and you can't because there are no sources that are allowable under WP policy. I know because I have looked. When I said "personal opinion" I was referring to Jammo's comments above. He makes the claims, but there aren't any sources to back them up. He is over playing Jackson's notability. I think that's all I need to say. Addicted4517 (talk) 00:14, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
 * It is true that there is no single reliable source independent from the subject (I did not know about cagematch), but the fact that there are a few sources (reliable or not) indicating that he was a member of TMDK is really frustrating. Because of this I agree that it should not be placed in the article yet. In any case, asserting that he was never a member of TMDK doesn't seem reasonable... Why does Hartley himself post pictures of the TMDK? He uses the TMDK shirt here and there is a TMDK picture here . There must be a reliable source somewhere, but until we find it, it is better not to place in the article. (why doesn't TMDK has a website with this information for gods sake.)  Walwal20  talk ▾ contribs 02:57, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
 * digging into the depths of the archives, I found this . This has to be reliable, what do you think?  Walwal20  talk ▾ contribs 03:15, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
 * There is a an extensive history of TMDK in this article, which includes Jackson as a member of TMDK. Here is the link Would this source be ok? Jammo85 (talk) 03:53, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
 * , for an ordinary article I'd say that reference is fine, but since we're talking about a biography here, we must be extra careful (per WP:BLP). Let's way till Addicted replies, and then we continue from there.  Walwal20  talk ▾ contribs 04:34, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
 * No, Last Word on Pro Wrestling is not reliable because the managing editor is Jamie Greer - who wrote for Wrestlezone, an established unreliable source. I meant to add that to the source list and I forgot. I'll do it now while I think of it. Just as an aside, there have been many instances of wrestlers wearing someone else's merch to promote said wrestler, team or stable without being directly a part thereof (AJ Lee wearing Bayley's tee on Raw just before she retired springs to mind). The archived source isn't independent. As to why TMDK didn't have a website - I would guess that it was because it wasn't a creation by a promotion as such. That's why you'll find promotions saying anything about it is questionable even on their official websites (ie Melbourne City Wrestling). It's the perfect reason why independent sources that are reliable are essential. Addicted4517 (talk) 04:44, 28 September 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.