Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Harvard–Yale soccer rivalry


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Looking at the opinions expressed since the article was basically rewritten after the AFD nomination, I believe the concerns expressed in the nomination have been sufficiently addressed. Liz Read! Talk! 21:02, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Harvard–Yale soccer rivalry

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Unlike Harvard-Yale football rivalry and possibly Harvard-Yale regatta rivalry, significant secondary coverage does not appear to exist for a association football rivalry between Harvard and Yale, and thus it does not meet WP:GNG. N.b., while Harvard-Yale hockey rivalry's current sourcing is dismal, additional coverage for that is readily available on Google Scholar. There's probably enough coverage for a general Harvard-Yale rivalry (currently redirects to the American football article) or Harvard-Yale sports rivalries article, but I'm not seeing enough for an article on just the soccer rivalry. signed,Rosguill talk 21:57, 14 November 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Guerillero  Parlez Moi 20:56, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Football, Connecticut,  and Massachusetts. signed,Rosguill talk 21:57, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep. Added citations from Sports Illustrated and Boston Globe. For decades (through the 1980s), the Harvard-Yale soccer game took place during the same "sports weekend" as The Game (football) and was well attended (~3,500 at each in 1962). Article could use more work, but it looks like there are more sources to sort through via Wikipedia Library and books, etc., also re: the women's soccer matches. Cielquiparle (talk) 22:44, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm unable to access the Sports Illustrated piece cited (although based on the title, it looks like it's about the schools' rivalry across sports in general?); looking at the Globe piece, I'm not sure it rises to the level of providing significant coverage of the rivalry, as it focuses on specific coverage of that year's matchup rather than the rivalry writ large. signed,Rosguill talk 22:47, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete: All I'm seeing -- once one discounts the various primary sources, and the several sources that don't discuss this subject at all, as opposed to the more storied football rivalry and the rivalry between the two schools generally -- is routine sports coverage and casual mentions. What is conspicuously lacking is significant coverage of the purported soccer rivalry, and frankly I think this article is an attempt to manufacture something that doesn't really exist.  The bar for WP:NRIVALRY is set quite high, and this falls embarrassingly short of it.   Ravenswing      00:42, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete: not notable, not even pro, and is just pretending its relevant cuz ot the other sports or whatever.Muur (talk) 02:37, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep: Citations such as Boston Globe, Sports Illustrated, Evolvements of Early American Foot Ball, etc. easily make this article meet WP:GNG. Furthermore, it is better sourced than its hockey counterpart. Rylesbourne (talk) 03:49, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Which citation do you claim discusses the subject in the "significant detail" the GNG requires? The Globe citation doesn't discuss it at all.  The Evolvements citation, if you actually read it, just says that Yale first fielded a soccer team in 1872 (not 1871, as erroneously claimed in the article); the cite does not mention Harvard at all. .  Meeting the GNG requires rather more than "Oooh, the article's reference section has citations to the Globe and SI."   Ravenswing      14:37, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 20:23, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep - Per Cielquiparle and Rylesbourne. Thanks, Das osmnezz (talk) 20:47, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Could you elaborate on what you found compelling, in light of Ravenswing's critique of said arguments? signed,Rosguill talk 21:06, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I have added more articles from both The New York Times and The Boston Globe, and generally tried to clean up. The best, most in-depth coverage so far is the 1985 New York Times article "Elis Dominate in Lesser Games" which includes a lot about the intramural soccer rivalry. The surprise discovery was Yale senior and future U.S. Senator John Kerry scoring a hat-trick at the Harvard–Yale soccer game for the win in 1965 (which he mentioned in GQ). There are still a lot of clippings and sources to go through so I'll update if there is anything else that looks particularly strong. It would be nice if we had one more like that 1985 New York Times one, but IMO this passes now in aggregate even without. (I've even removed the problematic source mentioned above and replaced with other books.) Cielquiparle (talk) 21:12, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Rename and expand as a general Harvard-Yale rivalry article. Not enough coverage about the soccer rivalry that I can see. GiantSnowman 21:54, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * The problem with Harvard-Yale rivalry (as a concept) is that it is way too broad, and it will lead to a complete mess, like the Oxford-Cambridge rivalry article that was nominated for deletion, got kept, and then had to be stripped down. (The Harvard-Yale rivalry article now is focused on gridiron football and is already huge.) IMO, it's better to have the specific sports rivalries separate from the academic rivalries between the schools, and only if they are notable. (Anyway... We still have 5 more days to fix.) Cielquiparle (talk) 21:59, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * The other thing I would add is that given the time period covered by this topic (well over 100 years), this is getting into historical research, so it requires more than looking up sources in Google; it requires searching other databases and books and libraries, etc. Cielquiparle (talk) 22:06, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * For my part, I am still not seeing anything beyond routine sports coverage -- and not even of varsity action, with the NYT article discussing intramural games! -- of the sort that would apply to any other soccer game Yale played against any other college. Breaking notable articles into smaller chunks only works if the smaller chunks are in of themselves notable, and this just isn't.  If you're that motivated to continue researching this subject, I've no objection to draftifying it to your user space if you insist on maintaining it as soccer-only, but the answer to the issue here isn't to keep the article until you find qualifying sources.  It's to delete the article until you do.   Ravenswing      00:29, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Keep per work done by User:Cielquiparle. Initially the article suffered significantly from an overreliance on primary sources, but the sourcing looks to have been tightened up and expanding to include reliable secondary sources. Definitely worth noting that many of the reliable sources discussing the rivalry will inevitably mix with the American football rivalry due to the history of each sport in America, but it seems to have enough significant coverage to meet WP:GNG. Jay eyem (talk) 02:55, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep, passes GNG.--Ortizesp (talk) 05:43, 23 November 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.