Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heartfulness


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Normally, I try to find some consensus for WP:ATD, such as the merge suggested, but in this case I find none, so a straight delete. -- RoySmith (talk) 11:44, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Heartfulness

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The Heartfulness article has existed since 2011 and for most of that time it's been a fairly unstructured collection of original research. There has never been an intelligible explanation of what heartfulness actually is. I thought it was meditation which used the cardiac rhythm as some kind of focus, but apparently that's not the case. I have been trying pretty hard to find reliable independent sources that talk about the concept, but although the word is used by two or three different organisations that teach meditation I can't find an actual definition of it anywhere, and the only source that might perhaps qualify as a WP:RS is the French-language article that's currently used as a reference in the article - that's not significant coverage. It is rather telling that heartmath.com, one of the organisations used as a reference both back in 2011 and again this month, doesn't discuss heartfulness at all - it's all just synthesis. The article has been heavily edited by people who have a conflict of interest, e.g. User:PetriHuitti; this blog post on Huitti's own website is interesting and may have led to some of the recent activity on the page. For a while the title was a redirect to Mindfulness but I don't actually think that "heartfulness" is sufficiently notable to work as a redirect. bonadea contributions talk 09:25, 13 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Hello, I came across the discussion on the talk page last month where one of the users was suggesting to start off a new page as the content on the page since 2011 didn't make mush sense as suggested above. Since then I did spend good amount of time researching and gathering content on this topic as it appears now on the web, and I am trying to build the page with proper discussion in the talk page and while trying to follow all necessary guidelines, but surprisingly noticing a kind of eagerness to revert any changes without discussion. I admit, my experience with creating new pages is limited, but then we all start somewhere. Before even I could add all the content, reverts were made, hence I stopped any more edits to prevent edit wars, and was trying to move the discussion on talk page and continue in draft mode, but then this deletion nomination came. Maybe it is fueled by the suspicion that my activity is somehow linked with user User:PetriHuitti, I will leave it up to the Admins to verify that. Meanwhile I am just sharing some relevant info on this topic that I gathered online in last couple of weeks. The term Heartfulness is a new term but gaining in popularity fast, it essentially means meditation on the heart. It's basically a methodical practice to use one's heart in ways more than just an organ pumping blood. Since its based upon the premise that human heart has a lot more potential and performs many more functions than just pumping blood, I had added this section on new research with links from verifiable and reliable sources, but it was taken out stating that its not relevant. Here are some non related but verifiable links on this topic - Link 1, Link 2, Link 3 and here are some totally independent and geographically dispersed organizations, who are talking about and have some kind of methodical practice on Heartfulness meditation: heartfulness.org - global presence, Heartfulness University by Love Solutions - Finland, SilentStay Retreat Hermitage - California, USA. It will be great if at least sometime is given to folks who want to build this page properly meeting all of the WP guidelines and then a decision is taken. Duty2love (talk) 10:57, 13 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Looking at the links you mention, the first two are already in the article, and only the second one actually qualifies as a reliable source since the Huffington Post link is a blog post written by a representative of a company that teaches meditation (SilentStay). The third one, the garrisoninstitute.org one, is possibly a reliable source although I'm a bit doubtful. As for the three organisations you mention, they are not "independent", in the sense of the word used at Wikipedia - which goes for the Garrison Institute as well. An independent source is a source that has no vested interest in a written topic and therefore it is commonly expected to describe the topic from a disinterested perspective - please see this page for more information. "heartfulness.org" appears to be the organisation that coined the term and there's been some promotion of them in the article previously; silentstay.com is the same company that the author of the Huff Post blog post works for, so that's essentially the same source as the one already present. lovesol.fi is the most informative one, they actually have a short description of how the meditations work, but again they are not independent. All this does not mean that heartfulness is not a worthy concept or helpful for the people who practice it. It only means that independent sources have not written about it yet. Sources like the ones you mention can be used to verify facts (though to be honest most of the information on the websites is too vague and uninformative to actually tell us anything) but they can't be used to show notability. Sorry about the lengthy post here, but I wanted to explain exactly what the problem with the article is - and it's not that the concept is unworthy, or that anybody thinks that there is some kind of collaboration between different editors, but simply that notability has not been shown. --bonadea contributions talk 19:37, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

PetriHuitti (talk) 12:54, 13 August 2015 (UTC)Hi, hope this comes right here, this user interface here is really difficult and I don't understand how I can support when there seems to be no place to make draft page here, just propose on the public article and then it is just deleted, even my edits removed, proposals. I don't agree heartfulness being only a form of meditation. It can be anyway thought so, and probably many different forms of meditations even, like heartfulness.org / Sahaj Marg, Bruce Davis, our small unit here in Finland, Buddhism way of doing it, and probably many others, like psychologists also use, aside mindfulness, regression therapy goes very close to heartfulness meditation I think. But, I see heartfulness as a wider concept, way to see life differently, use it in personal life, work, education, bringing peace in the world even, as Dalai Lama have suggested. It doesn't happen with superficial mindfulness designed for corporate world only, if I can be direct here, you need to go deeper in yourself. The art of heartfulness, is to bring it outside meditation, to real life, daily life, listen and follow your heart, intuition even when pickin something out of the shelf in the grocery store, listening yourself, whether that product, food, is good for you or not. And heartfulness cannot be exactly studied or defined by words, by science, verified sources, there are as much different definitions as there are experiences, it is about personal experience, nothing else. If you have no personal experience of it, it is nothing. If you have, it is all there is. Be well, listen to you heart, if you want to, dare to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PetriHuitti (talk • contribs) 12:54, 13 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Spirituality-related deletion discussions. bonadea contributions talk 19:46, 13 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete Not sure what to make of this. The concept is rather vague, associated with mindfulness, often confused, like it is the same thing as mindfulness in some instances; other times, it is simply an adjective, meaning warmth or good feeling, like it is used here. In this article it is seen as a stress reducing technique. Plus maybe it should be treated as a dictionary definition? And the yoga world is trying to use the definition as a meditation method. My sense is at this point to delete.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 00:36, 14 August 2015 (UTC) There is a wiktionary definition here.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 00:39, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi User talk:Tomwsulcer, so now it is more clear why the content added was not very relevant to term "Heartfulness". Would it make sense to add a page for "Heartfulness Meditation", would this and similar content be applicable for that term .... please advise. Duty2love (talk) 10:58, 14 August 2015 (UT).
 * , if you can find news sources, or books, discussing Heartfulness meditation objectively, impartially, respected sources which are seen as neutral, then maybe you could float an article with that title. My initial sweeps of US news, and in particular Indian subcontinent news, did not reveal much along these lines. The Huffington Post is not seen as a reliable source, since there is not much editorial review, and they take submissions on all kinds of topics.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 11:51, 14 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi, I think it would add value to have here some experienced Wikipedia users, who have some knowledge, understanding of the spirituality, concepts around it, maybe even about heartfulness, or at least about the meaning of the heart, spiritual heart in our growth. E.g. intuition in deeper levels, our wisdom doesn't come from mind but from heart so to say. I tried to contact userJoshua_Jonathan who seem to be updated Spirituality page and is aware, interested in e.g. Buddhism which includes also heartfulness as a concept, in their way. Maybe he or someone else who understands the concept somehow, can help us find proper solution. Whether it means deletion, redirecting or having own page for heartfulness.PetriHuitti (talk) 10:58, 14 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Again, the solution is to find significant coverage of the concept in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. The symbolic value given to the heart, and the idea the the heart is the centre for certain emotions, is discussed in Heart. --bonadea contributions talk 11:45, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — ☮ JAaron95  Talk  15:36, 20 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Merge - I'm guessing that this goes either with 'mindfulness' (as a counterpoint to be discussed in that article, since meditation is inherently focusing on getting rid of mind/heart/soul lines), with 'meditative postures' (as part of discussing ways to focus on your heart), or with the main 'meditation' article itself. I'm not sure, but I'm leaning that way. As far as definitions and sourcing goes, I look to see how the term 'heartfulness' is defined but don't really get a handle on it myself. A lot of vagueness. If I have to choose, I'd say that 'heartfulness' should go to 'meditative postures' as a process of mediation, as per this. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 11:25, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete - I'd agree with Coffee about merging into mindfulness, but... I don't see any content worth merging. There's nothing here worth saving. Fyddlestix (talk) 05:20, 28 August 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.