Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heaven's Dawn


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. slakr \ talk / 10:01, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Heaven&

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Disputed prod. NN video game. Article's creator claims its hard to source, perhaps because it never achieved significant coverage in reliable independent sources - there are 618 articles in Category:1995 video games, so presumably notable games will be sourceable. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 01:51, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 15:18, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Software-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:18, 18 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Bushranger One ping only 02:07, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

 
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, —Tom Morris (talk) 11:45, 3 October 2014 (UTC)




 * Keep as creator. Old games are notoriously hard to find sources for as they are all in physical magazines that are out of print or at the very least not available on the internet through a simple Google Search. This *is* a notable game.--Coin945 (talk) 12:03, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete. Not sure how "keep as creator" is helpful—yes, you want to keep it, no, we're not any closer to comparing it to the GNG. So while the other AfDs from this lot were kept, no similar sourcing shows for this one. The MobyGames listing, while not a reliable source and no good on its own, usually points to the print reviews necessary for making an AfD case. No such sources available for this one. Further, no meaningful hits in WP:VG/RS or Amiga Magazine Rack searches. Yes, it's hard to find the actual out-of-print sources, but it's rare for a notable game to be missing entries in basic databases in this age. czar ♔   00:41, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
 * There may very well be sources out there, but I'm having a hard time finding them if there are. I need access to Taiwanese magazine articles. In any case, I have much respect for you I trust your judgement. :)--Coin945 (talk) 11:21, 6 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Neutral. I think this is a notable game but can't seem to find an sources. I would put this down to the game being released near the pre-internet age, not originally being released in English, and me not having the best ability to scout the internet and print magazines for video game sources. --Coin945 (talk) 11:23, 6 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Sources I just discovered the game's Chinese name. (After all, it was originaly developed and released on Taiwan). See here for evidence that the chinese name is "中文名称：绝地—众神之咀咒". This seems to have a more successful Google Search.--Coin945 (talk) 11:42, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Interesting find, but still can't find sources using that name czar ♔   12:10, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
 * We really need someone who understands Chinese because I'm seriously struggling. From what I can gather, This appears to be the game's script, This is a chinese book about the game, this appears to be information on the game's development - perhaps given by a member of the team, an article about the game, this appears to be some sort of text. a walk-through perhaps? or a book about the game?--Coin945 (talk) 12:21, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I should have clarified not that we can't find sources, but that we can't find reliable sources. This isn't to say that they don't exist at all, but if they're this hard to find, there's no problem with deleting the article for now and reestablishing it once sources are found. czar ♔   19:05, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I do think there is some great content in those sources I found - especially the one about the game's development - so I want to seek help from a Wiki-user who understands Chinese before being able to wholeheartedly accept a delete.--Coin945 (talk) 03:52, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Unless such a translation confirms somehow that the info comes straight from the dev, that site's a forum and would not be accepted as an adequate reference for the article (nevertheless a secondary source sufficient for the GNG) czar ♔   05:06, 7 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I tagged some people from the "Category:User zh-5" page in order to help us out. Essentially we are trying to find sources for an article about a game (Heaven's Dawn) originally released in Taiwan. I worked out what its Chinese name is ("中文名称：绝地—众神之咀咒"), but am having a bit of trouble deciphering the few links I managed to find (see links above). Please can you read those sources and see what can be used to prove the topics' notablility? Or even to help us find more sources (I found this part particularly difficult)? Thanks in advance. :)--Coin945 (talk) 13:18, 7 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment I'd say the correct translation of the name is "Jedi, Curse of the Gods" but it may have been published under a different name in the West. There is a fairly long review here but douban may not be considered a reliable source. There is a walkthru at China Internet Information Center (article link). There are also a number of other sources scattered about. I would call the notability as borderline but with a bit of work ... Philg88 ♦talk 14:15, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment A word on the name: the Chinese name should be "绝地—众神之咀咒" whereas "中文名称" means "Chinese name." Although literally "绝地" is the translation of Jedi, this game has nothing to do with Lucas's trilogy, so I'd say "Jedi, Curse of the Gods" is not accurate.  The links given by Coin945 above, except the one about the dev process, are all the same text, the walkthru found by Philg88 at China Internet Information Center.  As to the forum thread about the dev process, it is a autobiography-style memoir.  I think this thread is posted by a member of the team as it contains many details which a non-member won't know, but I don't think it adds anything to the significance debate.  I also did a Baidu ("largest Chinese search engine") search on the query "绝地——众神的诅咒" and obtained only 326 results, among which many are about Jedis or curses.  Not a serious research though, I would suggest it is not very popular in China.Tony Beta Lambda (talk) 15:08, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Weak Delete, based on the comments of our Chinese speaking friends above and the fact that there is very little in English that would propel this past the GNG. There might be more out there in Chinese that I can't read; if such sources are found post-deletion the article can be restored.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 02:39, 12 October 2014 (UTC).
 * Delete - Doesn't seem to be any reliable sources to be found of this for the time being. But once there are some, the article can always be restored and improved. GamerPro64  03:33, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete. No coverage in reliable sources. The sources currently cited in the article are just some game sites that couldn't really be considered respectable for encyclopedic purposes. -- Writing Enthusiast ( talk &#124;  contribs ) 03:57, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment. Thanks for invite. Not sure whether it is suitable to delete this article. For the Chinese information that I have searched, this game is not a notable game in Taiwan and Chinese world. So maybe it is hard to find information about this game. But one of the sources stated that this game has Finland version. One of the articles about this game I have also found some youtube videos about ways to play this game. One of the Youtube videos. And also, the Chinese name for this game is 绝地—众神之诅咒, "咀" is the wrong word for "诅". --Shengwei95 ( Talk ) 02:50 12 October 2014 (UTC)


 * New journal article source: --Coin945 (talk) 15:11, 12 October 2014 (UTC)


 * http://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&u=http://www.cnki.com.cn/Article/CJFDTotal-DINA199702049.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522%25E7%25BB%259D%25E5%259C%25B0%25E2%2580%2594%25E4%25BC%2597%25E7%25A5%259E%25E4%25B9%258B%25E8%25AF%2585%25E5%2592%2592%2522%26start%3D20%26newwindow%3D1%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DtDh%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26channel%3Drcs%26biw%3D1680%26bih%3D874
 * Just to summarize to this point, we still don't have anything to use to write an article. A bunch of links and (apparent?) mentions but few from reliable sources and none with actual information to populate an encyclopedia article. czar ♔   15:58, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * We have a Pelit magazine article (excerpted at Mobygames), the aformentioned journal article, a site where the games developers discuss the game in detail, plus this article. I think that enough to demonstrate the games notability, taking into account the fact that we have no deadline and more concrete sources can be located as research deepens.--Coin945 (talk) 02:11, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Mobygames is not reliable, and Pelit is behind a paywall, as is this journal article (which could even be an advertisement—we have no idea what it is). The latter two links are not reliable sources. Anyway, this is where I bow out so please ping me if needed czar ♔   02:22, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment the argument that because a source is behind a paywall it cannot show notability is nonsense; we use whatever sources are available.  DGG' ( talk ) 05:55, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * , "the latter two links" refers to the latter two of the four mentioned by Coin (i.e., the supposed game dev discussion and the jedi.org site, not the paywall sites). czar ♔   06:48, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.