Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heavy horse (disambiguation)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was move to Heavy horse and keep. Regards,   A rbitrarily 0    ( talk ) 00:47, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Heavy horse (disambiguation)

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I don't believe this disambiguation page is necessary. Right now, Heavy horse redirects to Draft horse, which has a hatnote pointing at this DAB page. The DAB page links to Draft horse and Heavy Horses, a Jethro Tull album. Right now I see three ways this could go per WP:DAB:


 * If the primary subject of Heavy horse should be Draft horse, then the hatnote on that article should link directly to Heavy Horses.
 * If the primary subject of Heavy horse should be Heavy Horses, then a hatnote should be added to Heavy Horses linking to Draft horse.
 * If neither is the primary subject, then the DAB page should be located at Heavy horse.

In any case, the article Heavy horse (disambiguation) should not be required. –Grondemar 04:21, 1 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Ambivalent. Here's the situation:  "heavy horse" OR "heavy horses" happens to be a common, colloquial, but not terribly correct term (singular or plural) for a draft horse.  Essentially, what I'm after is simply for people who are searching on that term to not be dead-ended with looking either for the horse or the album.  Probably your first solution above is the best, but I couldn't make the  hatnote work for anything other than a disambiguation page, so in frustration, I created one.  Also, I put a hatnote on Heavy Horses directing people looking for the animal, that's done already If you can fix that redirect template problem, I am not terribly wedded to having a two-entry disambig page. So whatever gets people looking for one to have directions if they land on the other.    Montanabw (talk) 05:29, 1 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete then Redirect to the Jethro Tull album, with a link back to Draft horse from there and put hatnotes on either article. There is no need to merge anything, as there is little in the way of content that can be merged to the album, with the possible exception to the back link of the colloquialism.  I'm working from Montanabw's comment for this one - this seems to be the most logical approach. -- Dennis The Tiger   (Rawr and stuff) 16:14, 1 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I DO think that "heavy horse" should redirect to Draft Horse, which it does currently, But we need a hat note at that article that reads "Heavy horse directs here, for the Jethro Tull album, see Heavy Horses"  But I can't make a template do that!  (arrgh).   Montanabw (talk) 22:58, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Check Draft horse now, I believe I have the hatnote set up like you wanted. You needed to add another couple of fields to the  template; see WP:HATNOTE. –Grondemar 23:12, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Frankly, I can go either way; as the term is a colloquialism, the JT album would be most logical, but what goes over more common usage should get the win here. =) Altered my !vote accordingly. -- Dennis The Tiger   (Rawr and stuff) 23:56, 1 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Note - removed recommendation to redirect the dab. Not really appropriate to do so.... -- Dennis The Tiger   (Rawr and stuff) 23:57, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:58, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep Is it out of line to suggest adding Heavy cavalry (as used in the movie Braveheart and similarly to the corresponding Lighthorse page) to this WP:DAB which would give it a reason to exist? VernoWhitney (talk) 18:07, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Ambivilant The horse of the heavy cavalry was primarily the Destrier, which was NOT, contrary to modern myth (including that of several draft breed registries) a draft horse. That said, if the term "heavy horse" DOES refer to heavy cavalry anywhere else besides a Mel Gibson movie, I wouldn't complain, either.   Montanabw (talk) 00:13, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I found some references: one regarding ancient roman cavalry, one about macedonians, and one with a whole range of examples. There are some others, but those give a good range of showing that it's not a completely unknown term (even ignoring Mel Gibson). VernoWhitney (talk) 01:38, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I think Heavy cavalry is a reasonable entry on the disambiguation page. Since there seems to be disagreement whether Draft horse or Heavy Horses should be the primary topic, I think the third option above is best: move Heavy horse (disambiguation) to Heavy horse, overwriting the redirect.  Thoughts? –Grondemar 02:18, 4 March 2010 (UTC)


 * OK by me. I think that the disambiguation term should be "heavy horse," singular, as heavy cavalry horses were not draft horses as we know them today, and hence the term can refer to two different sorts of animals. (For anyone who cares, the modern Andalusian horse is more what the medieval knight's horse was like, and for people such as the ancient Persians, the animals were smaller yet... ironically. )  Montanabw (talk) 22:19, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Changing my opinion to Delete this article and make Heavy horse the WP:DAB page (with Heavy cavalry added). I think I didn't read your three proposals clearly enough last week, but this choice (#3) seems the best to me as there doesn't seem to be a primary topic. VernoWhitney (talk) 14:38, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,   A rbitrarily 0    ( talk ) 00:09, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * Delete, this is better served by a redirect to draft horse, with a hatnote link leading to the album. J I P  | Talk 07:00, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm with VernoWhitney and Grondemar. "Heavy horse" might well mean "Heavy cavalry" instead of "Draft horse".  There's some potential value in a disam page here.— S Marshall   Talk / Cont  12:41, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep. I added "Courser (horse), a warhorse ridden by armoured knights during the Middle Ages.".  A heavy horse is a term sometimes used for the big horses needed for heavily armoured knights, in contrast to Lighthorse and Light cavalry.  --SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:46, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * As Montanabw mentioned above, that should probably be Destrier, not Courser . Also, when I was doing some research into adding Heavy cavalry to the list (again, above), I didn't notice anything that referred to an individual warhorse as a heavy horse, just the armored units of cavalry. Are there sources backing up that usage of the term? VernoWhitney (talk) 22:16, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I just noticed that you did add Destrier to the page. That'll teach me to speak before actually reading. VernoWhitney (talk) 22:19, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I added Destrier only after you loaded the page. "Heavy horse" is not well defined.  I understand it to mean roughly: a horse capable of carrying a person into battle who is so heavily armoured that he cannot mount the horse unassisted, or without a platform.  --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:07, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Folks, I tossed both courser and destrier in favor of Heavy cavalry, as the term addresses armament, not the horse type, Heavy cavalry dates back to the ancient Persians, who rode neither coursers nor destriers. (Actually, by today's standards, even the medieval animals weren't really all that huge) And actually, coursers were lighter and faster. Similarly, "light horse" references unarmored animals, some of which were actually about the same size, if not larger, than the medieval animals who carried knights. None of which were draft horses as we know them today (When working on Horses in warfare and Horses in the Middle Ages, we actually wound up exploding several dearly held myths about the topic...sigh...)  As for whether the disambig is named Heavy horse or Heavy horse (disambiguation), I honestly could not care either way.   Montanabw (talk) 23:36, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Tossed both courser and destrier in favor of Heavy cavalry. You did good.  Thank you.  --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:03, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * At this point with the development of the disambiguation page, I recommend closing this discussion as Keep, and then moving the article to Heavy horse overwriting the redirect currently at this name. The final name of the disambiguation page would not include "(disambiguation)" per WP:DABNAME. –Grondemar 04:49, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Same result as I intended with my delete !vote above, so it works for me. VernoWhitney (talk) 14:43, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, but someone be sure to fix the dab links in the articles.  Montanabw (talk) 19:26, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Move to heavy horse per Grondemar. PhilKnight (talk) 20:22, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.