Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Helena Train Wreck


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. nomination withdrawn (non-admin closure) Spartaz Humbug! 02:43, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Helena Train Wreck

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We have one local source and zip in google news, scholar or books and the first couple of main pages show nothing reliable. Looks like this simply isn't noteworthy enough for an article. Suggest delete and redirect to Helena, Montana or merge if there is salvageable material. Spartaz Humbug! 03:54, 20 January 2012 (UTC) Nomination withdrawn Good save there. Can someone close this now please? Spartaz Humbug! 14:48, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete No one died, and there were no serious injuries. A bunch of railroad equipment got smashed, some chemicals blew up, and oh, it was a really cold morning. Not notable.  Cullen 328  Let's discuss it  05:09, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete. This did not appear to have a lasting significance to demonstrate notability. No one was killed/injured and plenty of train wrecks have happened in the past; that doesn't mean they need their own articles. Till I Go Home (talk) 07:17, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions.  —Tom Morris (talk) 12:41, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Montana-related deletion discussions.  —Tom Morris (talk) 12:41, 20 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep -- It caused a VERY significant amount of property damage, completely freaked out local residents (explosion woke up the whole town), and was the worst train accident in Helena history, possibly one of the worse in Montana. I have placed notice at WikiProject Montana for participants to comment and ask the discussion stay within the notability criteria-- I do admit the article is very stubby and needs expansion.   Montanabw (talk) 00:52, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi. Are you aware that the reasons you have provided for keeping this article are invalid? Causing significant property damage, scaring residents and being the worst train accident in Montana do not account for notability, unless it is shown in significant coverage from reliable sources. Till I Go Home (talk) 11:36, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
 * There have been much worse and much more notable train wrecks in Montana. On June 17, 1938, a passenger train plunged into Custer Creek off of a trestle that had been damaged by a flash flood, and according to an article in Life magazine, 44 people were killed  and three were missing.  It was described as the worst American train wreck since 1887.  Then, there was the head-on collision between two trains at Young's Point on September 25, 1908 that occurred during a blizzard and killed 21 people.  A derailment near Missoula on June 10, 1962 injured 282 people, 63 of whom were hospitalized.  Those wrecks are described in Montana disasters: fires, floods, and other catastrophes.  I do not think that the Helena incident rises to the benchmark of notability for train wrecks, which I would describe in general as significant loss of life or widespread injuries.  Cullen 328   Let's discuss it  18:06, 21 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete Can find very little coverage or indications of lasting impact.RafikiSykes (talk) 08:59, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment Ok, so worst train wreck in Montana for 50 years, then. (Still worst wreck in Helena, ever) And a Google search on "1989 Helena train" provides this, among which the accident is rated as one of the Top Ten Montana Weather Events of the 20th Century.  Note that -32 F below is significant cold, even in  Montana.  If anything, the notability is that the train travelled backwards from the top of MacDonald Pass, a good 12-15 miles (not sure how many rail miles compares to road miles) and crashes almost in the center of town, not more than a few hundred yards from a college campus.  The train carried hazardous chemicals, knocked out power to the whole town, caused a square mile of the community to be evacuated, damaged buildings, and caused expensive repairs.  Just because no one died should not detract from its significance; the miracle that no one did is significant in itself!   Montanabw (talk) 03:46, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
 * But do reliable sources call it a "miracle" with a straight face?  Cullen 328  Let's discuss it  04:06, 22 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Luck, at least! How about Montana disasters: fires, floods, and other catastrophes By Molly Searl pp 127-128.  Rather than arguing it here, I'll just pop some material into the article itself  Montanabw (talk) 04:13, 22 January 2012 (UTC)  What also strikes me here is the poor faith in blindly doing a search on the word "wreck" -- "accident" "crash" or "explosion" would also be suitable.  My own search was just "1989 Helena Train" and I found numerous sources, some of which I'm adding.  If consensus goes against me, at least merge what's there into the Helena article, I expanded it quite a bit.   Montanabw (talk) 04:46, 22 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep I now think that the article scrapes by, based on the outstanding work done by Montanabw. I still think that the other train wrecks I mentioned above are even more worthy of articles, but I've been convinced.  The article needs a lead paragraph summarizing the incident.  Cullen 328   Let's discuss it  06:32, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Will do more later, I'm tired and I have a headcold...  :P   Montanabw (talk) 06:36, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Changing my vote to keep per improvements made. Till I Go Home (talk) 07:41, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep per Cullen and Go Home. MTBW has done a great job of article rescue here and it just meets notability. Yea, there are more noteworthy MT train wrecks, but that doens't mean this one per force isn't noteworthy. On that point, I think it's just notable for wiki. Pumpkin Sky  talk  12:41, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Just added a statement and ref in which this wreck was part of a US Dept of Energy study. Pumpkin Sky  talk  14:56, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks all, and I much appreciate the good faith, if I got snarky at anyone, sorry 'bout that, you folks are champs! (Who DOES have the authority to close these, anyway?)  Montanabw (talk) 16:23, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The article has improved so the initial concerns that led here no longer apply to the article. Only thing to add is that it might be worth renaming to something more in line with how people refer to it?RafikiSykes (talk) 17:52, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I've no objection to a proper rename, open to ideas on the article's talk page. Maybe "Helena train crash of 1989?"   Montanabw (talk) 01:41, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.