Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hellshock


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Tone 00:25, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Hellshock

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

seems to fail WP:ATHLETE and WP:BIO; he has never competed at a "high" level, nor won any particular award, and I cannot find sufficient reliable coverage for his career. Ironholds (talk) 23:58, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * obviously this person did not read the note at the bottom of the Hellshock page about the changes and he didn't or couldn't read the original rebuke nor was he privy to the discussion in chat with some moderators about those changes. and he apparently didn't read about the new name for the page which is clearly stated as the pages last entry. and since the page has been nominated for deletion i am not allowed to officially change the name until this matter is resolved. and furthermore instead of being able to update or change the page or even to prove my notability i am forced to defend myself from attacks by people who have 0 notability outside of Wikipedia. Hellshock70  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hellshock70 (talk • contribs) 00:57, 3 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete - I'm getting a strong whiff of WP:COI here and, in any case, the article cites no sources. This could be an article worth saving if these issues were addressed. Eddie.willers (talk) 02:28, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * What I have gathered from my conversations here in the talk pages and the moderator chat is that We as independent pro wrestlers are not good enough to be included at wikipedia because we are not current or former talent of the WWE or TNA or any former top level organization like the AWA, WCW, NWA, etc. They also claim that former enhancement talent like Colt Steele and Rob McBride for example shouldn't be listed because even though they where on-air-talents they never competed for the World title. And yet WWE Smackdown, WWE RAW and WWE-ECW are loaded with talent who have never competed for a world title. But they are an exception because they are "CURRENT" on-air-talent. And we also are disqualified from being included even if we have been on TV or competed for an unofficial World title if there is no on-line search evidence even though some of these organizations existed and/or ceased to exist before the internet was available for public use. Just an observation but the Von Erich's World Class World title never recieved "official" status till a few months before the company folded if at all. And to my knowledge this and a few other "World" titles have never been or very rarely was defended outside the United States. And since the current recognized World titles are not defended outside their company against worldwide competition how can that be considered a World title. For that matter how many times has a Japanese or other non-american or non-canadien baseball team been competing for a spot in the "World" Series? And while all pro wrestlers from my trainee Justin Myers to Hulk Hogan are athletes we cannot be listed in the same competitive breath as a Super Bowl team. Why? They compete for their title, we are predetermined. We are selected by either being talented or we had someone pulling backstage politics to get us there. And i have on-air proof from the final WCW Monday Nitro where Ric Flair was VOTED to be World Champion by Vince McMahon, Sr. back in the 80's. Hellshock70  —Preceding undated comment added 03:07, 3 January 2010 (UTC).
 * And to address the conflict of interest: I didn't have a conflict till I was slandered. And why should I cite sources for my article when I've already expressed the desire to change the topic and the content? Hellshock70 —Preceding undated comment added 03:15, 3 January 2010 (UTC).


 * Delete. Hellshock, a conflict of interest doesn't mean a clash of personalities, it means writing about yourself or something you're closely associated with.  People generally have a tough time writing truly neutral, objective articles about themselves, not to mention press agents writing about their clients and so on.  Second, the question isn't whether independent wrestlers are "good enough" to be on Wikipedia—we have articles on not just Mother Teresa but Adolf Hitler too, and that doesn't imply a judgment about which is "good enough."  The issue is just notability for inclusion in a general encyclopedia.  And unfortunately after looking for sources I just don't see evidence that this article is going to meet WP:BIO or WP:ENT.   Glenfarclas   ( talk ) 05:19, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete unless the article is furnished with references showing significant coverage in reliable sources. As it stands, the subject of the article doesn't pass the notability guidelines. Dylanfromthenorth (talk) 06:28, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * AGAIN: Why? Why do I need sources for this topic when I have PLAINLY STATED my intentions to CHANGE the TOPIC and CONTENT to something else? AND by the way: what is in my SOON TO BE FORMER TOPIC that is a conflict of interest? If I wanted to make myself bigger I could have claimed to be a 10-time European World Champion (which isn't true), I could've claimed to be related to Cyrus McCormick (which is true), I could have claimed to have pinned, beaten up or teamed with Matt & Jeff Hardy, Hurricane Helms and Joey Abs (false, but we were in the same indy company 13-15 years ago). I didn't do anything to warrant this being blown out of proportion the way its becoming. i can scan a copy of my college i.d. card to verify I'm in college and my curriculum to show I'm taking accounting courses. But all of this is irrelevent because I'm changing the topic and the only reason the content hasn't been changed YET is because I CAN'T CHANGE THE NAME OF THE PAGE until either the page has been deleted or someone unfreezes it to allow me to change the name. While I can adjust the content I'm not allowed to change the name and it would still fall under an article for deletion cause the new topic wouldn't match up with the old title. (example: title- hellshock, content- the life and times of civil war colonel Elmer Ratliff) No match. So either delete it now or unfreeze it so i can take it into another direction or delete it myself. It's that simple DELETE IT or ALLOW ME TO DELETE IT OR CHANGE IT. So i can quit dealing with people spouting policy and apparently not reading anything I've wrote about changing it. You're beating a dead horse, you've won, now shut up and let me change it or let me delete it or delete it yourself. And by the way I keep getting this message that says I can post my signature by clicking the signature button but that button is not here for me to use.Hellshock70 —Preceding undated comment added 06:47, 3 January 2010 (UTC).
 * If you don't see the button (it's pretty vague-looking) you can just type four tildes, like so: ~ . That will be turned into your signature when you hit Save Page.   Glenfarclas   ( talk ) 09:29, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Why don't you just start a new page on the new topic, with the new name? Then you'll have your new page and we can let this discussion run its course. Please try and remain civil in your responses too. Thanks. Dylanfromthenorth (talk) 16:48, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It's easier to remain civil when someone reads and responds to you what you have said when they address the whole statement instead of picking and choosing from it. Until you not one person responded to the expressed desire to change the page name and content. And further more because of the athletic requirements for pro wrestling we can't be bound by entertainment standards. mild example: Triple H does not have a stunt double LOL. But, because of the predetermined nature we are not Sports. Which is why on the books in a legal forum (a new jersey court and you can look this up on any search) Pro Wrestling was dubbed "Sports Entertainment". So in truth, we don't have a genre or standard cause i guarantee if you're not one of wrestlers who have crossed over into music or films like Dwayne Johnson or John Cena or you where not a former pro football player like Wahoo McDaniels you will not meet all of the wikipedia requirements for inclusion. One in particular point is a requirement to have competed at the top level for the world title. How can you compete for a predetermined title? Frank Gotch won the world wrestling title. Ric Flair was voted in by the NWA board of directors in the 80's. And when Vince McMahon bought WCW Flair stated to Vince on live tv that his father voted for him to be world champion (and you can see that by searching for "the last WCW Monday Nitro" and/or "Ric Flair's Shoot"). Hellshock70 (talk) 18:36, 3 January 2010 (UTC)Hellshock70


 * Delete The more that an article creator rants and raves, the less he/she takes time to listen to what's being said here. No matter how glowing a future this wrestler/accountant has, there is no evidence given of any present or past notability. Bear in mind that this is an encyclopaedia and not a soapbox for prophets of future glory. If the article is deleted, come back with the evidence. Take time to get it all together, or we'll be reviewing it at AfD again. May I suggest requesting deletion and starting again? But you must have the third party reliable sources to back up the article's claims. Don't put in things about the future. WP:CRYSTAL will tell you why not. Also, articles about other wrestlers are not relevant here. If you think they shouldn't be there, tag them. Peridon (talk) 19:18, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * future glory? LOL It's clearly states 2011 as year of retirement. LOL. Hellshock70 (talk) 21:44, 3 January 2010 (UTC)Hellshock70
 * As we (in the UK at least) are only in 2010, that comes under WP:CRYSTAL too... Peridon (talk) 22:20, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * So I guess that means when someone like let's say Mark Martin says he will retire at the end of the year you can't list it?Hellshock70 (talk) 22:36, 3 January 2010 (UTC)Hellshock70
 * I left a general reply on your talk page, but to answer that question specifically - we would need a reference from a reliable source that shows the person saying that. Biographies of living people are awkward areas, and most, if not all statements should be referenced. Dylanfromthenorth (talk) 22:48, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe it was in the moderator chat area that there was a statement that the wrestling companies listed on my page had 0 coverage or notability. Obviously they didn't check since New Dimensions Wrestling has plenty of coverage and this was a google search and that they claimed to use google. Hellshock70 (talk) 03:03, 4 January 2010 (UTC)Hellshock
 * I cant speak for anyone else, I can only give my opinion on this specific article. Its not prudent to start talking about other articles on other subjects. This AfD only concerns Hellshock, and as far I'm concerned, notability hasn't been demonstrated. Dylanfromthenorth (talk) 03:21, 4 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete - There is no reliable sources covering the subject of this article. If the article author wishes to start a new article on the history of indpendent wrestling, he can do so, or contribute to the sxisting article at Independent circuit.  However, that has no bearing on this article. -- Whpq (talk) 16:27, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete fails WP:ATHLETE. LibStar (talk) 01:26, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete. Aside from the obvious COI, subject definately fails WP:ATHLETE. Has never wrestled in a top level promotion. (Note: Wrestling someone who did wrestle in one of them doesn't put you there. Terry Bradshaw threw me a ball once, that doesn't make me a NFL receiver). Or if you want to look at it another way, he fails WP:ENT. Take your pick. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:45, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.