Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Henry Bartholomay


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was keep. Johnleemk | Talk 15:16, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Henry Bartholomay
Seems to be a non-notable pilot. Delete. Fightindaman 19:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep The pilot who shot down the only Vietnamese MIG019s during the Vietnam war seems notable. However the images are not sourced and likely copy-vio and should be tagged as such. Gwernol 19:06, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: I just did a quick search and found that these were not the only two shot down. At least one more was shot down (I say at least becuase this was just a quick search) by another pilot in his squadron only 5 days later.  See http://www.history.navy.mil/download/vfa15195.pdf Fightindaman 19:17, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep The pictures of the two F-4 Phantoms were the exact planes as described in "US Navy F-4 Phantom II MiG Killers 1972-1973", by Brad Elward and Peter Davies, 2002 by Osprey Publishing Limited. A portion of the narrative used under the ready room picture and the text to the right of it are excerpts from the book, as well. I have permission to use these from the authors. The MiGs WERE the only two MiG-19 North Vietnamese Aircraft downed by Navy pilots in the war.  The MiG-19 engagement is one of the most written up of the war. . A quick look at the quote underneath the ready room picture "...celebrate downing the Navy's only MiG-19 kills of the Vietnam War..." The crew to whom you refer is Mugs McKeown and Jack Ensch, who downed two MiG-17s five days later on 23 MAY 1972.  Topgun0272 21:14, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: I just sourced the two photos indicated above. I believe that this is correct. Topgun0272 21:33, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment:Since there is no date on that picture it's possible that it was out of date. Again, the Dictionary of American Naval Aviation says "23 May 1972: Two of the squadron’s aircraft, while flying MiG Combat Air Patrol for a strike in the Haiphong area, were vectored toward Kep Airfield and sighted 4 MiG-17s and 2 MiG-19s. VF-161’s aircraft proceeded to engage the MiGs even though they were outnumbered 3 to 1. In the ensuing battle Lieutenant Commander Ronald E. McKeown and his RIO, Lieutenant John C. Ensch, shot down a MiG-17 and a MiG-19 with Sidewinders. Fightindaman 01:25, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep but please do something about the formatting. Looks like a scrapboook entry :-) Just zis Guy you know? 23:36, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: I did this as a legacy for my children and grandchildren. I am the pilot referenced and all of this is true. The authors I cited above received my permission to interview me and print the description of the migshoot that included Oran, Pat, Taco and myself between our two F-4Bs and the MiG-19s. Fightindamian, there is NO mistaking the dates.How could there be? Mugs and Jack shot down two MiG-17s. That dictionary is wrong. You need only read any other source or look at our squadron aircraft which sits on the flight deck of the USS Midway in San Diego Harbor (the San Diego Aircraft Carrier Museum). Actually, it's kind of funny because this is the first time that there has been any doubt in anyone's mind over the last 34 years!Mugsy's retired and Jack, a retired Capt., is Director of Military Marketing for the San Diego Padres and both would be interested to know that they were credited with a MiG-19. Jack's time spent in the Hanoi Hilton might have been a little different had the NVA known as well.As for reformatting the scrapbook, I can do that when I have a better idea of what would look better. Other than that, I really thought that something like this would be helpful to future generations in their research of that period in our nation's history.Bart Bartholomay, LT USNRRet.Topgun0272 21:33, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment:You say that dictionary is wrong, but navy.mil is a pretty authoritative source. I don't know where the page in the article came from, and you unfortunately are not a reputable source, so I'm not sure if we can take what you say unless you can show a source which backs it up. Fightindaman 04:08, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep: While I'm at work right now (which will explain the IP address as a sig), I actually have photos of the aircraft mentioned above from a recent visit to the Midway. The article here could go into a bit more detail mentioning that this was the first MIG-19 shootdown of Vietnam, perhaps, as that was the story told during the tour. A worthy topic.24.82.16.187 17:12, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: Since this IP only has 3 contributions (two of which are to this vote), you may want to re-sign this with your usual username, since otherwise this vote won't be taken very seriously. Fightindaman 00:13, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Being home from work now, sure. Looking for that pic, too, it might be useful for the article. Tony Fox 01:17, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: Fightindamian, the source you use is wrong and, interestingly enough, it's the ONLY source I've ever seen that indicates Mugs and Jack shot down a MiG-19. They would be proud. But even the North Vietnamese teach the correct version in their own school system. I have facts to back that statement up, too. However, because one of you were nice enough to reformat the article so that it looks good and in keeping with other wikis (thanks, BTW!!), here's a few links that confirm what I have said.The right intake of our bird that sits on the flight deck of the USS Midway (a military vessel now the San Diego Aircraft Carrier Museum), as mentioned above, and has all of our squadron's MiG kills during 1972. They are even on the superstructure as evidenced by the last link below. There are three MiG-17s - McKeown/Ensch(2), Kovaleski/Wise(1), two MiG-19s - Bartholomay/Brown and Arwood/Bell. Surely, it can't be wrong.The other MiG-17s were from a previous cruise much earlier in the war.If anyone thinks that a more indepth account of my own recollections of the dogfight, especially mentioned here in the wiki article, would be appropriate I can do that, but so much has already been written that it seemed redundant.US Air-to-Air Victories in the Vietnam WarAIRCRAFT SHOT DOWN DURING THE VIETNAM WAR BY USN/USMC PILOTS - see link as military linkFrom the MidwaySailor site. Bart Bartholomay, LT USNRRet.Topgun0272 21:33, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment:Well, as far as your sources go, they seem to confirm that the two kills in question were the only two MiG-19s downed by the Navy. Not the only two downed in total.  Your first sources lists many Air Force MiG-19 kills, the other two are only for the Navy/USS Midway.  So it comes to this being about a pilot who downed one of two MiG-19s shot down by the Navy, 10 in total.  This still doesn't seem notable. Fightindaman 00:13, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: It would seem notable enough that the aircraft used for it is preserved as part of a naval museum, and a fairly significant part of the program there. It's documented in several places. Works for me.Tony Fox 01:43, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You Win I won't go further with this.Please either approve it for inclusion or delete it.I will not waste any more time validating what I and my crews did.Topgun0272 02:48, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete as vanity. WP is not for memorials, no matter how notable the accomplishment, and Topgun clearly stated he created this article as a legacy for his family, not as a matter of contributing information.  If it truly was notable, someone other than the people involved should know about it and be able to write about it, which they have. MSJapan 00:44, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep per Topgun0272, JzG and others above. Would love to see this expanded. -- JJay 13:36, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.