Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Henry Bonilla (baseball) (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. The arguments seem to show that it barely meets an established notability criteria for the sport. As such, consensus is to keep at this time (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:24, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Henry Bonilla (baseball)
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Non notable minor league baseball player.. Notability guidelines have changed since his last AFD in that minor league all-stars are no longer notable. Has some foreign league appearances which might make him notable but i cant find significant sources about him. Spanneraol (talk) 02:20, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Baseball-related deletion discussions. Spanneraol (talk) 02:21, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. &#9733;&#9734;  DUCK IS PEANUTBUTTER &#9734;&#9733; 02:33, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of El Salvador-related deletion discussions. &#9733;&#9734;  DUCK IS PEANUTBUTTER &#9734;&#9733; 02:33, 1 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep. As the article notes, Bonilla pitched for T&A San Marino of the Italian Baseball League, the top national league in Italy, in 2010. As such, he satisfies category 2 of WP:BASE/N. The article doesn't include a citation for that claim, so here's a RS-worthy article from the San Marino Notizie about the club signing Bonilla (and two other players). If you'd prefer something in written in English, this piece from Mister Baseball (not strictly a RS, but very reliable in my experience) should confirm it for you. It is also worth noting that Bonilla is by far the most accomplished baseball player from his country (El Salvador), and as such is much more important than the average player of his level of experience. See, for example, this Spanish-language profile in El Diario Del Hoy. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 15:49, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete - fails notability guidlines. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 21:42, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:BASE/N criterion 2. If there is a reliable source for his being the most accomplished player from El Salvador, that would make the case even stronger. Rlendog (talk) 23:04, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I misread the end of HBWS's post. The El Diaro profile should confirm his notability. Rlendog (talk) 23:05, 2 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 09:54, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete I don't buy into the presumption of notability for anyone who played in a country's "top-level league," as claimed above. I know this has been debated here before with regards to the Mexican League, but the Italian League, which is a part-time league that pays part-time wages, has an even weaker claim. That aside, there just isn't a lot of sources for this guy. The Italian article linked above only mentioned Bonilla four times, and two of them were in lists of players' names. The Mister Baseball article is a little better, but isn't much more than a recap of his career stats. The only decent source is the story in El Diario Del Hoy, and one source just isn't sufficient. - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 05:00, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment- Your statement alone leads me to believe he has at least 1 solid source, followed by one that offers a non trivial mention, and another that might be trivial. I'd say he has multiple non trivial WP:SOURCES and passes WP:VERIFIABILITY. PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 07:38, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 * One non-trivial source isn't enough to meet GNG. By that standard, any Little League player, city councilman or teacher who gets featured in his or her local newspaper meets WP:GNG. - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 08:46, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 * "solid"would be my own criteria at work. However, I am using wikipedias saying they need multiple non trivial references. and I see at least 2 PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 13:53, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Theopolisme ( talk )  22:46, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Where's the second source? I see one story, one press release that mentions him twice, and a Mister Baseball "article" that mentions him in the last paragraph. If this is the new standard for Wikipedia notability, then anyone who played Little League or got elected to the school board and got their name in the paper is now notable. - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 00:07, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The reason that the guideline presumes notability for any player in a top-level national league is that reliable sources on those players can nearly always be found if you're willing to look at foreign-language sources. If you want additional sources on Bonilla, you could take five minutes and put in a good-faith effort. If you aren't willing to do that, here's a profile in El Universal, and here's a pay link to a profile in La Opinión. There are probably others, but that should be enough to demonstrate the point. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 14:43, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Every minor league baseball team above the Rookie level is covered much more thoroughly than the San Marino Whatevers in the part-time Italian League. Why doesn't BASE/N presume notability for them? As for your sources, what you call a "profile" was actually a six-paragraph note that told us nothing about Bonilla except a recap of his teams and stats. That "profile" didn't help to demonstrate Bonilla's notability at all. - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 00:47, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
 * BASE/N doesn't presume notability for them because they aren't the top-level league in their country, the way that the (full-time and fully-professional) Italian Baseball League is in Italy. Their importance within the context of US sports is much lesser than the importance of the Italian Baseball League within Italian sports. Wikipedia isn't just written for and about US-centric topics - covering things from other countries is good, in the interest of countering systemic bias. Individual players from Rookie-level ball in the US may be notable, of course, and if they meet the GNG then they can have their own articles, just like anyone else. As for your dissatisfaction with the El Universal article, I think a seven-paragraph article of 300+ words exclusively about Bonilla and his career from a paper with a daily circulation of 150,000+ is a perfectly reasonable source, though of course you're entitled to your opinion. Outside observers can judge for themselves. If you want a piece that provides a broader overview of Bonilla's career, however, perhaps this piece from the San Marino Notizie will please you more? -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 16:51, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you kidding? You're seriously arguing that the Italian Baseball League is more important in Italy than Triple-A baseball is important in the U.S.? That's ridiculous. The Italian League is also not "full-time"; teams play a 42-game schedule, which is fewer games than some U.S. amateur softball leagues play. As for this latest source you found, do you really think a four-paragraph "article" that does nothing but recap the player's prior teams and stats advances this player's notability? You've posted three or four of the same type recap. That "article" doesn't tell us anything we couldn't get from his Baseball-Reference page. - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 00:30, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * If you want to try and argue in favor of including AAA players under WP:BASE/N, we can have that discussion on the guideline's talk page. This isn't really the place for that. I'm not sure why you think that a 42-game schedule should be an automatic disqualifier as far as a league's professional status is concerned. The NFL only plays a 16-game schedule, and nobody seems to object to them being classified as fully professional. As for the sources I've provided, here's an example of the sort of information that's in them but not on his B-R page: Bonilla's family moved from El Salvador to Reno, Nevada when he was four years old. As a child, he enjoyed soccer more than baseball, but he started playing baseball instead because all of his friends were doing it. He graduated from Galena High School, where he played second base on the days when he wasn't pitching. After graduation, he attended Larssen College in California, where he made the conversion to pitching full-time and earned Conference All-Star honors. That performance earned him a baseball scholarship at Tulane. He throws a changeup, a slider, and a curveball. Etc. Are those articles mostly baseball-related? Of course. He's a baseball player! Articles about baseball players focus mainly on baseball for the same reason that articles about actors focus on acting and articles about politicians focus on politics. It's the biggest part of their life, and the focus that defines them as individuals. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 14:39, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I totally agree with Bbny, its ridiculous to compare the Italian Baseball League with MLB affiliated Minor League baseball (or even the Mexican League), as the Italian Baseball League isn't even fully-professional (or even professional period) or have crowds of more than a couple of thousand at most. This would fail WP:FOOTY/N guidelines if he was a football/soccer player. I haven't seen the Spanish sources yet to make a decision, but a line needs to be set for all these "top-level" leagues. This is a classic WP:ILIKEIT and WP:IDONTLIKEIT discussion without much policy based or simply flawed arguments on both sides. Lets focus on WP:GNG and the quality of those GNG sources. Secret account 04:44, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Why are you saying in one breath that we should "focus on the GNG" and in the second admitting that you haven't looked at the sources I provided? Wouldn't the sources be the heart of an GNG-based discussion? -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 14:13, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I meant that I haven't seen the sources to make a decision if this meets GNG, and I can't form an opinion on this subject, so I'm staying neutral here. The thing is from reading this discussion that both of you are more focused on the "top-level" criteria in this AFD, which honestly should belong on the relevant guideline talk page, than GNG itself. Secret account 03:45, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep HBWS finds the sources as usual. This individual meets GNG for coverage in Spanish-language sources. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:18, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Did you actually look at the sources or is this another example of WP:ILIKEIT by Muboshgu? - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 00:47, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I looked at the sources. What makes you think I like this article or even what it could become? Where does that come from? – Muboshgu (talk) 04:50, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Bbny see Assume good faith. Secret account 04:44, 11 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep by technicality As long as WP:BASE/N is worded as it is, then this is a keep. Alex (talk) 04:28, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  MBisanz  talk 00:04, 15 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep per Alex. Automatic Strikeout  ( T  •  C ) 22:10, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.