Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Henry Elkins


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus.  So Why  12:01, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Henry Elkins

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Delete: Fails WP:GNG. I don't see any WP:Reliable sources that establishes this persons notability. Mitchumch (talk) 19:06, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 19:18, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:29, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Health and fitness-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:29, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:29, 10 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep he was a close associate of Martin Luther King, Jr mentioned specifically in MLK's autobiography. He was also an important leader in a large historically black college. Given the civil rights struggle predates the internet, sources are harder to find but undoubtedly exist in other books. I fully expect his controversial activities would have been reported in 1960's newspapers. His later work is also somewhat notable, with many of his works findable in a search. That is why I promoted the page. Dr Elkins is far more notable than the pageant queens and youtubers that get pages here. He actually changed history. Legacypac (talk) 21:18, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment: Being a close associate of MLK does not make one notable. There does not appear to be any content about his important leadership at a HBCU. Numerous Wikipedia articles rely upon sources that cannot be examined on the internet.  If you are aware of sources, then please cite them so they can be examined.  As the article stands now, it should be restored to the draft page space until you have added those sources.  Considering it had been in draft space from 25 May 2015‎ until 9 June 2017, the article should have been deleted over a year ago.  Mitchumch (talk) 21:49, 10 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Delete None of the references in the article devote significant coverage to Elkins, and my search online found no significant coverage in reliable, independent sources. I found passing mentions of Elkins as an aide or assistant to MLK but this is not enough to establish notability. I own two lengthy biographies of MLK, Let the Trumpet Sound and Parting the Waters and neither mentions Elkins. I also own a 702 page volume of his essential writings called A Testament of Hope and King doesn't mention Elkins once. The ability to find someone's published work online does not make a person notable. If it did, then every single blogger, published writer and reporter would be notable, but 99% aren't. We cannot keep an article based on speculation that better sources exist. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  21:54, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * WP:NEXIST applies here. I'm not a subject matter expert, I found this while reviewing AfC submissions. I spent some time improving the sourcing and verifying what I could on the internet. Everything checked out as far as I could find, so I doubt the contributor made up anything in the article.  We are dealing with a - perhaps minor nut notable - civil rights leader and looking for sources from the 1960's.


 * Further to Mitchumch comment about a HBCU: North Carolina Central University is a HBCU. ref 7 "Microsoft Word - Christian.Ministry.doc" (PDF). Retrieved 2017-06-10. says "In 1962, several judicatories decided to establish the United Christian Campus Ministries at universities and colleges throughout the State of North Carolina. They include the Baptist State Convention of North Carolina, United Methodist Church, Episcopal Diocese of Raleigh, Presbyterian Church – USA, Diocese of Raleigh – Roman Catholic, United Church of Christ, and The Lutheran Council. From 1965-1966, Reverend Hank Elkins became director of the United Christian Campus Ministry. Judicatories, local businesses, and churches, across denominational lines, lent support through finances, buses, vans, and representatives to serve on the Campus Ministry Board. The University provided work study funds. However, during Reverend Elkins’ tenure, the State of North Carolina, through the Governor’s Office, began to question the use of state funding for a religious organization. Later, the Institution had to pay back the work-study funding." Also it refers to his immediate predecesor as "the first campus minister" at little further down it talks about tensions over civil rights protests and the role of Campus Ministry leadesrship in that, tensions which appear to have started under Elkin.
 * I've added refs to Jet Magazine, a mention in a Los Angeles paper from 1962, and another book referencing his role in the Carver Park incident.

Legacypac (talk) 02:55, 11 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Comment - I didn't locate much, other than incidental mentions and a group photo in the Aug. 23, 1962 issue of Jet magazine. Newspapers.com drew a blank. Carrite (talk) 17:14, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * A couple brief mentions located on Newspapers.com, that he was an "Atlanta aide to King" and a "College Chaplin" at NC College, the latter mentioned in The Daily Tar Heel in 1963. Still no substantial sources counting towards GNG. Carrite (talk) 17:18, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Another brief mention in The Daily Dar Heel that Rev. Elkins was arrested at a sit-in protesting segregated lunch counters in Dec. 1963. One does suspect that the sources are oout there somewhere, but I'm not finding them myself. Carrite (talk) 17:22, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * WP:NEXIST has been mentioned as a reason to keep the article. That section concludes "However, once an article's notability has been challenged, merely asserting that unspecified sources exist is seldom persuasive, especially if time passes and actual proof does not surface." I searched three major printed sources as well as online and found nothing significant. I will gladly switch to "Keep" if significant coverage is brought forward. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  19:54, 11 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep - passes WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:NOR. Main issue is lack of in-depth sources. I think the footnote in The Papers of Martin Luther King, Jr., Volume VII is sufficiently in-depth. I've added another mention from the Greensboro Record using genealogy bank (which does not have clippings), but which is an in-passing announcement of a talk he was giving about sit-ins and mentions his position. Smmurphy(Talk) 18:33, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment: I nominated this article because he is not notable. I am not disputing his participation in the movement.  I am disputing his notability.  Not every person that participated in the civil rights movement is notable.  Elkins is among that group of non-notable participants.  Not a single citation supports this person being notable.  I actively work on Civil Rights Movement related articles and routinely scan draft pages for potential articles.  I have never come across a journal article, monograph, thesis, dissertation, or a published conference paper about this person. Mitchumch (talk) 21:03, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Great! Smmurphy(Talk) 21:14, 12 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Comment I searched a different way (look for Hank Elkins) and found 3 pages in a 2016 book "From Reconciliation to Revolution: The Student Interracial Ministry, Liberal Christianity, and the Civil Rights Movement" focused on Elkins, his part in a student movement toward desigrigation that lead to his posting working for King and his involvement in the Albany Movement. He lived with the Kings, assisting, driving for and supporting King in a time where a white person would be denied housing for associating with blacks. This is in depth coverage in a serious book. see pages 39-41 in particular I don't own the book, he could be covered further, but that is a serious discussion of Elkins in an important context with 5 inline sources specific to him, and at least the first chapter devoted to the group of student activists he was part of. Legacypac (talk) 21:26, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment The point of that book is to discuss the Student Interracial Ministry which will need to be created. Every member of that org that participated in the CRM can be included in that article.


 * Here's an example to clarify this problem. I have listed nearly every participant of the Freedom Rides in the Notes section.  Are you saying that each participant should have an article?  There were hundreds of volunteers during Freedom Summer and hundreds of elementary students during the Birmingham campaign.  As individuals the majority of participants are not notable enough, but as a group they are notable.  The Elkins article should be a redirect to Student Interracial Ministry.  That way other members in the book can also be presented and Elkins can have a presence on Wikipedia thru that article. Mitchumch (talk) 22:17, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
 * While until the page can be merged to Student Interracial Ministry this page should be kept per WP:PRESERVE. No point destroying the work just because there is a better way to present it. Legacypac (talk) 04:41, 1 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep - While researching is difficult, and finding sources online for this time period is difficult, with the extra sourcing which has been added, I think this person overcomes the "inherited notability" for his relationship to King, and now meets WP:GNG on his own.  Onel 5969  TT me 21:55, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment: ""inherited notability" for his relationship to King" is a violation of WP:INVALIDBIO which states, "That person A has a relationship with well-known person B, such as being a spouse or child, is not a reason for a standalone article on A (unless significant coverage can be found on A); relationships do not confer notability. However, person A may be included in the related article on B. For example, Brooklyn Beckham and Jason Allen Alexander are included in the articles on David Beckham and Britney Spears, respectively, and the pages Brooklyn Beckham and Jason Allen Alexander are merely redirects to those articles." Mitchumch (talk) 22:17, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Note that the article was expanded after the nomination for deletion, and additional sources were added to it.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 08:21, 17 June 2017 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 04:15, 25 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep this article has substantial  coverage and is well-referened. Vorbee (talk) 10:43, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete the only claim to notability is his connection to MLK. Since notability is not inherited, I would delete as non-notable.  Coverage is a threshold question for notability, but alone does grant it. Clearly he is verifiable.  Whether or not there is significant coverage here has not been specifically addressed, just asserted.  See "Presumed" means that significant coverage in reliable sources creates an assumption, not a guarantee, that a subject should be included. A more in-depth discussion might conclude that the topic actually should not have a stand-alone article WP:Notability. --Bejnar (talk) 20:55, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete. Despite my inclination to keep a referenced, cogent article on such a man, subject does not reach notability.  --Lockley (talk) 05:58, 1 July 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.