Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heresy in Orthodox Judaism


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Heresy in Judaism. Consensus that this is a content fork. (non-admin closure) Alpha3031 (t • c) 07:54, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Heresy in Orthodox Judaism

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First of all, this page is totally redundant. The majority of the points made are already mentioned in Heresy in Judaism. Very little about this page actually specifies specific heretical beliefs present in orthodox Judaism as apposed to mainstream Judaism. On Heresy in Judaism I wrote as heading that states “''The definitions of Heresy are sometimes different in certain Orthodox Jewish circles. Some Ultra-Orthodox Jews consider many works of Maimonides to be heretical, due to his more liberal interpretations of the Torah. That being said, many Orthodox Jews also hold Maimonides' Mishneh Torah to a very high regard. A small number of Haredi Jews consider the Conservative and Reform Jewish movements to be heretical, and an even smaller number of Hassidic groups such as Satmar consider the State of Israel to be a heretical institution. Ultimately, the majority of Orthodox Jews consider secular Jews as Tinok shenishbim as apposed to heretics.''” This basically summarizes all the reasonable points made on Heresy in Orthodox Judaism and explains the real differences present between orthodox and mainstream Judaism. Secondly, the page has no actual sources, which speaks for itself. And lastly, the general neutrality of this page is definitely contestable. If not an outright delete, this page should be merged with Heresy in Judaism. Ibn Daud (talk) 21:41, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 21:47, 10 June 2020 (UTC)


 * KEEP the nominator is incorrect and cites skewed scholarship and simply because Orthodox Judaism and Haredi Judaism and Hasidic Judaism regard Reform Judaism, Conservative Judaism, Reconstructionist Judaism etc as heretical movements, while on the other hand when it comes to Hebrew Christians and Sabbateans all streams of Judaism regard those as Heretical. The nominator has taken a main article (Heresy in Orthodox Judaism) and made it into a few sentences in Heresy in Judaism. Note, in Judaism a Heretic or Heresy is known as an Apikoris of Kofer which redirect of Heresy in Orthodox Judaism, if eliminated would leave a gaping hole in the detailed history of how and why and when Orthodox Judaism regards the non-Orthodox movements as outright heresies. Thank you. IZAK (talk) 21:49, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep. The article is pertinent, as it deals with an issue that is real amongst observant Jews, and which has repercussions in a person's life along the way. The article, of course, can be expanded with more sources.Davidbena (talk) 21:44, 11 June 2020 (UTC)


 * REFUTATION OF NOMINATOR'S ARGUMENT: (1) "First of all, this page is totally redundant" It is not, it is full in new and WP:NOTABLE information. (2) "The majority of the points made are already mentioned in Heresy in Judaism." So what? Much of Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism is already "mentioned" and part of "Orthodox Judaism" but it does not mean they are "equal" or "repetitive" of each other. (3) "Very little about this page actually specifies specific heretical beliefs present in orthodox Judaism as apposed to mainstream Judaism." There is no such thing as so-called "mainstream Judaism" because there are today MANY STREAMS of Judaism and each has views regarding the validity or non-validity of the other. See for example Criticism of Judaism, Criticism of Conservative Judaism. (4) "On Heresy in Judaism I wrote as heading that states “The definitions of Heresy are sometimes different in certain Orthodox Jewish circles." This is incorrect because as the article Heresy in Orthodox Judaism points out there are specific citations from the Torah, Maimonides, different codes of Jewish law, all being 100% WP:NPOV and complying fully with WP:NOR. (5) "Some Ultra-Orthodox Jews consider many works of Maimonides to be heretical, due to his more liberal interpretations of the Torah." This is utter nonsense and a fabrication. This is about one author (Maimonides), not about an entire religious movement. There is a difference between being controversial and being heretical in Judaism, which may be difficult for the outsider to see. (6) "That being said, many Orthodox Jews also hold Maimonides' Mishneh Torah to a very high regard." Again not to the point by discussing an author and not a religious movement. It is not about what groupX or groupY of Jews holds it is the position of larger movements vis a vis each other. (7) "A small number of Haredi Jews consider the Conservative and Reform Jewish movements to be heretical, and an even smaller number of Hassidic groups such as Satmar consider the State of Israel to be a heretical institution." By marginalizing huge mainstream Haredi and Orthodox movements the author reveals his anti-Haredi and even anti-Orthodox prejudices that would explain why he is doing this on grounds of WP:IDONTLIKEIT and nothing else. (8) "Ultimately, the majority of Orthodox Jews consider secular Jews as Tinok shenishbim as apposed to heretics.”" Huh? Who is talking about "secular Jews"?! This is wrong and not true. The author does not cite a single WP:RS authority to back up this allegation. (9) "This basically summarizes all the reasonable points made on Heresy in Orthodox Judaism and explains the real differences present between orthodox and mainstream Judaism." The nominator fails to explain what he regards as the difference between "Orthodox" and "mainstream" Judaism, and if so, if there is a true difference even according to him, then surely there needs to be a different set of articles about the the Orthodox position and policies based on WP:RS in the the original article the nominator wishes to demolish. (10) "Secondly, the page has no actual sources, which speaks for itself. And lastly, the general neutrality of this page is definitely contestable. If not an outright delete, this page should be merged with Heresy in Judaism." This allegation is FALSE because the article cites many WP:RS and is written BY MULTIPLE EDITORS, EXISTING SINCE 2007  from a 100% WP:NPOV because while explaining the Orthodox/Haredi/Hasidic position on Heresy, that may understandably "disturb some viewers", but that does NOT mean they are faulty in any way whatsoever. This is a very good article, period. There is no point to run from the truth when it is staring you in the face! Thank you so much, IZAK (talk) 22:23, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

I’d like to defend myself against some of the accusations made against me personally.
 * Nominators defense


 * I’d like to point out, the main reason I proposed the deletion of this page is because the majority of the information on this page has already been mentioned on Heresy in Orthodox Judaism. Even if this page is kept up, it shouldn’t repeat information present on other pages to the extent that it currently does. This has nothing to do with a domineering viewport or a certain religious agenda. This is simply a matter of a redundant and poorly written page.


 * Mainstream Judaism is a common term, but it is convoluted and I could have used better terminology. That being said, that really isn’t related to the deletion of this page.


 * As for my “anti-Haredi and even anti-Orthodox prejudices”, I myself am an Orthodox Jew, and I have no agenda to pick on any specific Jewish group. I simply pointed out the commonly accepted belfies of some religious communities. Again I don’t really see how this is relevant to the delation of this page. If the blurb about Heresy in Orthodox Judaism needs to be changed or expanded on Heresy in Judaism then I encourage you to do so.

Ultimately, if I made any mistakes in my summary of this page on Heresy in Judaism, then I’m very sorry. It was not my intention to marginalize or offend any group of people. All that being said, at the end of the day, I don’t really see the value of this page unless it’s really expanded and improved on. And even then, most of the information could just be put on Heresy in Judaism. I’d like to point out again, that if you have any problems with my edits on Heresy in Judaism. I encourage you to fix them and leave an edit summary. Zei Gezunt Ibn Daud (talk) 01:51, 11 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Redirect I agree with the nominator that there is no reason to have a separate article for heresy in Orthodox Judaism, since the only difference is that some types of Judaism are considered to be borderline heretical by Orthodox Judaism, and that is explained in a section of the article about heresy in general Judaism. The target article is not large, and the issue is best dealt with in one article, both for practical purposes, read to avoid repetition, and in order to give readers an overview of the whole issue in all its forms on one page. Debresser (talk) 12:41, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Redirect/Merge I agree that Heresy in Orthodox Judaism is essentially an unedited copy of Heresy in Judaism and virtually all its content is duplicated. As such, any non-duplicated content should be moved to Heresy in Judaism, and Heresy in Orthodox Judaism made into a redirect.Ar2332 (talk) 20:28, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * NOTE User:SamsonKriger has made major improvements to the article since its nomination, IZAK (talk) 22:14, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * - these are major improvements? Is that how awful this article is?  starship .paint  (talk) 04:04, 13 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Redirect/Merge as per User:Ar2332. Move anything useful and redirect. Editor2020 (talk) 21:53, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Redirect/Merge per Debresser.  starship .paint  (talk) 04:07, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Commment (not to be taken as a vote). Articles are supposed to be based on reliable secondary sources, but only primary sources are visible and some parts don't even have primary sources. However, there is an invisible secondary source: except for the intro and the unsourced section "Non-Orthodox Judaism", everything is a copy-paste from the Jewish Encyclopedia. Zerotalk 04:07, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
 * , the Jewish Encyclopedia is in the public domain and can be used as a valid source. All one has to do is just source it and maybe at the bottom use a JE template/reftag, depending on how much of the page came from the JE. Sir Joseph (talk) 01:12, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I knew all of that. My object was to inform people writing here of this significant fact. Zerotalk 02:24, 17 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Merge with Heresy in Judaism. This article is a redundant fork of the main article, which has quite enough space in it to fit this content without harm. Havradim (talk) 00:44, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Merge. The main article is not so long that it requires forking, and moreover a lot of the material in this one predates the idea of "Orthodox Judaism" (even if Orthodox Jews continue to refer to it). –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 03:02, 18 June 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.