Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hester Shaw


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Default keep since the consensus is not to delete. A merge is an option, but can be discussed on the talkpage. Tone 10:22, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Hester Shaw

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Continuing from Articles for deletion/List of Mortal Engines Quartet characters. There are news sources about Hera Hilmar being cast as this character, but I'm not really sure that counts as GNG. ミラP 00:15, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. ミラP 00:15, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. ミラP 00:15, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Iceland-related deletion discussions. ミラP 00:15, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. ミラP 00:16, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. ミラP 00:16, 6 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete or Redirect to Mortal Engines Quartet as not individually notable.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 10:29, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep it needs to be re-worked to keep up-to-date with the style of Lyra Belacqua. 14.192.214.23 (talk) 13:03, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep The nomination is literally WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST.
 * Yet again, we see fictional character material for UK books held to a completely different standard. This is one of the main characters in a substantial series of books, later a starring role in a big-budget film. But it's UK, so apparently that's "just not notable". Yet the tiniest trivia from Marvel or DC is never held to anything like this standard.
 * To AfD a list of characters article for anything which has been a Hollywood film was farcical. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:07, 6 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment - To be fair, people put Marvel and DC comics characters up for deletion or redirection all the time. The claim that trivia from Marvel or DC is not held to the same standard is factually incorrect. For example:
 * 1. Articles for deletion/Dragonmage (2nd nomination)
 * 2. Articles for deletion/Virtuoso (comics)
 * 3. Articles for deletion/Big Man (comics)
 * 4. Articles for deletion/Bi-Beast
 * 5. Articles for deletion/Ahab (comics) (2nd nomination)
 * That's just the first few I found when clicking on random days in the AFD calendar. The reality is that there are a lot of people who think that, because a series or publisher is notable, that every character in that series (or every character in a book or comic published by that publisher) is automatically notable. These are almost always sourced entirely from the book or comic itself, or else sources that talk about the book/comic/movie and only incidentally mention the character. I don't see any double standard in AFD nominations here, since this is something that is always controversial because our notability guidelines are not well crafted to work with fictional characters. I think a strong argument can be made that Hester Shaw in particular is notable, but let's not distort the record by pretending that only UK-based works are scrutinized at AFD. 38.142.216.106 (talk) 15:20, 6 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Merge the real-world info to Mortal Engines (film) and redirect to Mortal Engines Quartet, where the character's plot detail can be covered just fine. It doesn't qualify as a WP:SPINOUT at this point. – sgeureka t•c 16:21, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Merge? Where to? The whole list of characters article has just been deleted! Andy Dingley (talk) 16:44, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I clearly said what to merge where. The LoC is irrelevant. – sgeureka t•c 18:31, 6 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Redirect - The minor production info does not currently establish notability. Unless more sources are presented, an article is unnecessary. TTN (talk) 17:51, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I suspect the 2018 film may gain a post-release cult following, thus affecting any reboot chances and the popularity of the Mortal Engines Quartet itself, and will remain as a once-off look into the world of Mortal Engines that may not occur again in anyone's lifetimes. That's what Redditor Tonino4 tell me, who also tried to silence me over the hypothetical Mortal Engines TV series reboot, it's like telling me to get over hopes of Philip Reeve's series ever get second life. It's like Fobos-Grunt all over again, but also the 2016 election of Donald Trump and the Brexit vote. -- 14.192.214.23 (talk) 18:14, 6 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Merge summary to Mortal Engines Quartet, redirect. Or just delete. Not seeing what makes this character independently notable. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:16, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
 * That doesn't mean someone will try to create pages to keep it under the same quality as that of His Dark Materials. -- 2001:D08:D8:53C9:BCA8:682D:9839:8C09 (talk) 11:48, 8 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep I'm a little confused by the merge votes... Are those based on thinking references are only casting or plot? The original comment about "news sources about Hera Hilmar being cast as this character" is a bit misleading and only part of the picture. A major bit of news coverage from a large number of outlets was actually about the controversy that developed out of Hollywood's decision to drastically reduce her scar. The USA Today (ref10) and Entertainment Weekly (ref11) articles already linked in the references are examples, but there is also The Independent, The Mary Sue, The Daily Mail, Screen Rant. Hera Hilmar's casting was more of a side fact in these articles, and it is the defining feature of the character that these articles focus on. The Philippine Daily Inquirer discusses the casting in this article, but it also discusses the character.  I suppose all of that could be put into a rather extensive Production section to capture the controversy, but that only addresses the movie.  As a literary character, she is also discussed in academic texts on children's literature: Contemporary Children's Literature and Film: Engaging with Theory.  I can't decide on this essay Bullen, E., & Parsons, E. (2007). Dystopian visions of global capitalism: Philip Reeve’s Mortal Engines and MT Anderson’s Feed. Children's Literature in Education, 38(2), 127-139., but I lean towards thinking it's more about the work, and Hester is simply used in reference regarding the greater discussion.  -2pou (talk) 21:56, 12 November 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.