Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hildegard Trabant


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. A merge discussion might be a good way forward. Mark Arsten (talk) 06:56, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Hildegard Trabant

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WP:ONEEVENT. Any remarkable content-I cant see much if any- can be merged to List of deaths at the Berlin Wall TheLongTone (talk) 15:41, 31 December 2013 (UTC) I respectfully decline this logic. To include such information of the at least 138 victims of the Berlin Wall would make for one exceptionally and ridiculously long article! Besides, Hildegard Trabant has had an article on German Wiki since 2009, and nobody thinks her article there should be deleted. Or did you overlook this? Numerous other victims of the Berlin Wall are also here on English Wiki, including, but not limited to Marienetta Jirkowsky, Ida Siekmann, and Peter Fechter; what makes Hildegard Trabant different from these three? Brewer Bob (talk) 17:31, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * in wikipedia jargon WP:OTHERSTUFF. Just because similar articles exist is not an argument. Also WP:NOTMEMORIAL. History is full of victims. Of the three you link to the first is simply a name and a date &c plus a load of pictures. It's a clear candidate for deletion or redirectin/merging to the article I linked to above. The second is basically the same, but has a lengthy preamble on the Berlin Wall. The third is the only one which deserves a separate article, because there were events consequent on the incident. Most of the people in List of deaths at the Berlin Wall do not have individual articles. Hope this clarifies things.TheLongTone (talk) 17:48, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. TheLongTone (talk) 18:12, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. TheLongTone (talk) 18:12, 31 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep - At least meets our notability guidelines for a biography. In addition to the sources in the article there are these:   . According to WP:BASIC "If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability;" This subject meets the criteria by having in depth coverage in two sources, and minor coverage in several independent sources.- MrX 18:26, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Even if she passes WP:BASIC she is still falls foul of WP:ONEEVENT. I don't think there is much strength in the point of view the the one event is their being killed: surely the one event is Berlin Wall killings as a group. Otherwise, they are just a murder victim, and most murder victims are not notable. It's the context of the Wall that confers notability, & therefore WP:ONEEVENT applies.TheLongTone (talk) 19:55, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The way I see it, WP:ONEEVENT is a portion of a larger guideline, and in this case, it's not absolutely clear what has to be done. What that leaves us with is editorial judgement, thus the value of these sorts of discussions.- MrX 20:11, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * As a rule of thumb, would there be enough for a supportable biography article leaving out the woman's death? Unless the third link given above contains something startling, (the other two are solely about Wall incidents) the answer is an unequivocal No. Hence, the article merits deletion.TheLongTone (talk) 20:44, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Hadn't noticed the fourth link, which mainly features the eponymous East German car-substitute, with one mention of the woman, again as a wll shooting victim. Hardly substantial in depth &c. All thes refs do is reinforce verifyability.TheLongTone (talk) 20:52, 31 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep - Applying WP:ONEEVENT would be seriously going against the intent of the guideline which is weeding out practically non-notable content that we would deem notable by means of GNG because of a short burst of news reports. Death at the inner German border have been the subject of longterm reporting and study as well as courtcases after the unification. In this particular case the perpetrator was sentenced 34 years later, something our article es not even mention. Notable as a person of historical significance not a random victim of a tabloid shooting. Agathoclea (talk) 22:32, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * That, if included, would be a reason to keep the article.TheLongTone (talk) 22:41, 31 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete on the basis of NOT MEMORIAL. To justify a separate article, there needs to be good evidence that her fate was regarded as particularly symbolic, beyond that of the many others killed trying to escape East Germany. The technical meeting of the GNG is not a reason why we have to make an article.  DGG ( talk ) 02:55, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Verbiage added attesting that her death was rather unique; 1) unlike most, her death was totally unnoticed in West Berlin; 2) when she was actually shot, she was no longer attempting to flee East Berlin, but merely trying to avoid arrest; and 3) out of at least 138 Berlin Wall victims, only eight were women.Brewer Bob (talk) 14:13, 1 Jauary 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.217.201 (talk)
 * Are you seriously arguing that because her death was little noticed, she is therefore the more notable? &#39;DGG (at NYPL)&#39; (talk) 19:33, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Needs citing.TheLongTone (talk) 14:26, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 14:48, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I have now added a reference from the official Berlin Wall Memorial. But I'm reluctant to keeping the article and would rather merge it to List of deaths at the Berlin Wall. De728631 (talk) 21:06, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Despite a truly heroic effort by the page craetor to write it up, I still don't see this as anything more than a merge.TheLongTone (talk) 18:20, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Merge -- Like others, I see little notable in this bio. The only unusual feature seems to be that it was unknown in the West until after the fall of the Berlin Wall.  On the other hand, merely redirecting to the list feels too drastic.  Could we turn the list into a free-standing article that would allow room for some brief biographic details of all victims?  Peterkingiron (talk) 00:13, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The List of Deaths...is in fact a substantial article: the list itself is a table within that article that has a field for additional details.TheLongTone (talk) 00:17, 5 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, &mdash; Coffee //  have a cup  //  beans  // 17:50, 13 January 2014 (UTC)


 * merge and redirect to List of deaths at the Berlin Wall There is not sufficient notability for a free standing article. We do not need to memorialize every victim of governmental repression. Dloh cierekim  23:23, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Merge and redirect. A textbook case of WP:ONEEVENT. She has no notability outside her death, and it had no historical significance on its own. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:45, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.