Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hilldale Lutheran Church (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete as failing WP:N (and any specifically applicable subsections). ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 06:34, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Hilldale Lutheran Church
AfDs for this article: 
 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

This article is about a church that does not establish notability. The article was previously nominated in August 2006 and closed with no consensus. Many of the keep arguments were that there appeared to be potential for notability. However, in over 2 years. I realize there is no deadline. However, my own search to find sources turns up only event listings that one would expect of any church. There no articles about the church. In particular, one area that the previous AFD referred to for potential notability was being a bilingual Finnish-English church, but that fact hasn't really generated coverage. Whpq (talk) 19:18, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Delete: Notability appears unprovable, so fails WP:Notability. Length of existance and bilingual nature do not establish notability, many churches are biligual or have existed without mention for long periods of time. The key here is the lack of information establishing notability. Unless presented with such information from a reliable third-party source, I must concur with the nominator. Jo7hs2 (talk) 19:55, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: found one Gnews result for an event at the church. http://lakesuperiornews.info/LifeStyles/Arts/Music/MusicalMavens/tabid/867/Default.aspx Jo7hs2 (talk) 19:58, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

*Change, Weak Keep: I wasn't thorough enough in my initial searching. There are a number of articles and mentions of the facility being used as a music venue, and for other purposes which push it right to the edge or slightly over the notability requirement. The mentions in these references are questionable as to proving notability, but the volume of them pushes me to where I'd be comfortable keeping the article. Jo7hs2 (talk) 21:02, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Weak keep: The church is often used for concerts (search: "Hilldale Lutheran Church" music), with several articles mentioning its excellence for this purpose, so has some notability in the community outside its normal function. Aymatth2 (talk) 20:36, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete: Checked the articles and could not find much beyond the fact the church is used for performances. Nothing notable about the building itself. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:52, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - Could you point out some of these references? It would be useful for other editors taking part in the discussion.  Thanks. -- Whpq (talk) 02:15, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Response: I just googled the search suggestion of Aymatth2. (See: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Hilldale+Lutheran+Church%22+music&start=30&sa=N). One thing I read that may be useful for more sources, and is a questionable actual source itself (probably not third-party), is a long report that seems to have a great deal to do with the Bilingual arguments brought up in the previous Afd. See: https://oa.doria.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/3028/faithful.pdf?sequence=2 Jo7hs2 (talk) 03:23, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Analysis - I still don't see how those sources establish it as a notable music venue. The first result returned is a university paper, and appears not to be independent as the preface states "First I would like to thank the faithful and committed members of the congregation who called me to be their pastor."  The second result is a Thunderbay tourism guide and merely mentions it as a venue where the local symphony orchestra sometimes plays.  Acoording  to that "...the TBSO present inspiring Masterworks and entertaining Pops concerts in the Community Auditorium; intriguing Classical Plus concerts at the lovely Hilldale Lutheran Church; Cabaret evenings in the relaxed setting of the Italian Cultural Centre; and Family concerts at the Thunder Bay Art Gallery." As such it doesn't appear that the location is anything special, and no mention is made of any acoustic quality that would separate it from the other venues such as the community auditorium and the Italian cultural centre.  The third and fourth results are event listings that say nothing beyond the church being the place where the event is taking place. The fifth links to a wiki user's subpage.  The sixth has the church being part of music event listings.  Note that it is not the only church mentioned in the event listings as many music events are held in churches.  The seventh and eighth are obituary listings.  And the last is a wiki mirror.  Aside from the first result, none of the search results show anything more than a mere mention of the church, and certainly nothing to distinguish the church as something special from the point of view of being a music venue. -- Whpq (talk) 12:38, 2 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete, there are billions of churches in the world, and I don't see how this church is any more notable than any other average church. Tavix (talk) 23:51, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: I am quite uncertain about this one. There are a great many places of worship in the world, but most of them have no special historical or architectural interest, and no particular controversy. They are ordinary buildings used for the purpose for which they were built, and not at all notable. A good test for any article is whether the content is or could be entirely backed-up by independent sources. With this article as it is now, none of the content qualifies...


 * But there are quite a lot of independent sources that describe the qualities of the place as a music venue. It could be rewritten from this viewpoint, based on solid refs. But would this make it truly notable? Not sure - and not volunteering for the rewrite. Aymatth2 (talk) 04:01, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - can you provide some links to specific articles that describe the church as a music venue? The search result list Jo7hs2 provided doesn't establish this.  See above analysis. -- Whpq (talk) 12:41, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Reply: Here is one page that talks about the qualities of the facility... http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:J8R6qrLpHKIJ:www.tbso.ca/_docs/TBSO_Brochure_2008.pdf+%22Hilldale+Lutheran%22+%22thunder+bay%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=222&gl=us quote: "Ou rClassical Plus series once again intrigues with familiar favourites and new discoveries in the intimate atmosphere and wonderful acoustic of Hilldale Lutheran Church."Jo7hs2 (talk) 18:38, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - the source is sales brochure from the TBSO, so it's a little dubious as a source, and is only quasi-independent. It's a very weak source to hang any sort of notability on. -- Whpq (talk) 15:20, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Reply: Good question. When I made my "weak keep" vote I had just noticed 7 pages of search results for the church name+music. When I work through them, they describe past or future events, but not the church itself, apart from the occasional "beautiful.". I have changed to "delete". Aymatth2 (talk) 13:52, 2 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions.   -- Raven1977 (talk) 00:02, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete - Not notable as a music venue; nor as a congregation, nor as a building. The paper on Transition from an Immigrant Congregation is one good source - but the only one, so WP:INDISCRIMINATE applies. Springnuts (talk) 08:55, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Reply - note that the university paper is not an independent source. See above search result analysis. -- Whpq (talk) 12:44, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Response - it is a very serious piece of research using a well defined methodology - I think we might stretch a point to allow it as a source - but even allowing it, I still agree with your move to delete this article. Off topic- perhaps we might hope for an article on Transition from an Immigrant Congregation, if anything else has been written on it? Springnuts (talk) 13:35, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Reply - I'd say it is useful as a supporting reference if other independent reliable sources could be found. But at this point, it appears to be the only source of substance, and it really can't stand alone. -- Whpq (talk) 14:27, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Springnuts (talk) 15:46, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Agree w/Springnuts: That article is a serious research paper, or at least attempted to be one, and were there another source that met the notability guidelines, I would be more than comfortable considering it a valid source. However, no such source has been found. Jo7hs2 (talk) 17:13, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

*Change again Delete: Per above, changing to Delete. Shear volume of sources outweighed by shear uselessness of them. Jo7hs2 (talk) 14:38, 2 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Weak Keep (another change): In light of a recent discovery (discussed below), I am changing yet again, to weak keep. I just found a mention in a published source, Encyclopedia of Canada's Peoples, pg 518. (http://books.google.com/books?id=dbUuX0mnvQMC&pg=PA518&lpg=PA518&dq=Hilldale+Lutheran+Church+immigrant&source=bl&ots=K6y3oCc1jM&sig=ZOEklR5kd2AimFpo193cnV8sVmI&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA519,M1) Which states "Today the Finns of Thunder Bay have five congregations...Hilldale Lutheran (formerly Finnish Independant)...". (This is confirmed in an online copy of the book at: http://www.multiculturalcanada.ca/Encyclopedia/A-Z/f2/5) The Leo Glad source from the University of Helsinki, "Faithful to the History Faithful to the Future. Transition from an Immigrant Congregation to an Ethnic Congregation" is a clear case of a valid source proving notability. I have no question as to the reliability of the paper. It was published as a paperback, it is well researched and written, and has heavy coverage of this church. It does have a third-party issue, because the author appears to have been a pastor at the church. However, I would argue that this is a case for a good source deserving some wiggle room. The Canada's Peoples encyclopedia is admittedly a weak source, but a mention in an encyclopedia has some measure of extra weight in my mind. Sure, it isn't an article, but paper encyclopedias are constrained by page limits, and we aren't. With the shear weight of material suggesting the church is a concert venue, the academic article which has a heavy focus on the church, and an encyclopedia mention, I feel there may be merit to this article, so I cannot vote for deletion. However, it is still a weak case. Jo7hs2 (talk) 17:38, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - I would disagree that the characterisation that there is any weight to of material that attests to the church's notability as a concert venue. Churches commonly host music events, and there are no articles that I've found, or that have been found by any others participating in this discussion beyond a directory listing.  If directory listings for music were to be the metric by which we could measure a church's notability, I'm confident that we can manage to include almost every single church in the world.  I can agree there is some wiggle room with the university paper (and have said so above).  But the encyclopedia mention is literally that.  A mention.  It isn't even the sole subject of the sentence in which it is mentioned.  Yes paper encyclopedia are contrained by space, but I would still want to see more than that one mention in the article. -- Whpq (talk) 18:06, 2 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Merge to Thunder Bay, Ontario. This is usually the best solution for churches, primary schools, etc, which are only of local significance.  This preserves the content (or a summary of it) without having an articleon a NN subject.   Jo7hs2 may have provided evidence of notability, but in that case the artile needs to be expanded taking into account the book's content.  Peterkingiron (talk) 22:38, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Open to a Merge: I would be open to a merge. While Thunder Bay, Ontario currently does not have a section on churches, adding one to the culture section, or some other section, would work well for this particular article.Jo7hs2 (talk) 23:08, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Support merge; I have considered this before but haven't gotten to it because my contribution level has declined lately. I grew up in the area of this church and it wasn't even very notable there, the article isn't very necessary. Thunder Bay has many other notable religious landmarks this would be a good addition to a subsection about them in the city's article instead. Also, there are many churches in the city that have concerts, including a 100+ year old church that plays host to the local symphony orchestra, and it doesn't have an article, so...  vıd ıoman  07:20, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Merge: Good suggestion. I have changed my vote (again) from delete. May take a shot at it. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:16, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment See Thunder Bay. A decidedly arbitrary list; I hope other editors will clean it up and add detail. There are well over 100 places of worship in Thunder Bay, mostly not at all notable. Aymatth2 (talk) 16:56, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.