Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Himalayan Welfare Organization, Pahalgam


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. &mdash; Coffee //  have a cup  //  beans  // 09:14, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Himalayan Welfare Organization, Pahalgam

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The founder of the organisation, Mushtaq Pahalgami meets WP:BLP but this organsiation is not yet notable in its own right, failing WP:ORG and doesn't have the depth of coverage to meet WP:GNG References: [1] is a comment on the organsiation by its founder so is not an independent source [2] and [3] are passing mentions only - they are ostensibly about Mushtaq Pahalgami.

All other sources I have located are business directory entries.  Flat Out  let's discuss it  03:36, 5 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep per new sources added on talk page. Redirect to Mushtaq Pahalgami. All of this information is already in that article. More than other NGOs, HWO does seem to be kind of a one-man show. Coverage is mainly about him, little information at the HWO website about members, etc. If there is more coverage of HWO later, it can be recreated. – Margin1522 (talk) 10:14, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Support redirect - sources and information are duplicates of information on Mushtaq Pahalgami and many sources are passing mentions only.  Flat Out  let's discuss it  23:43, 5 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Margin1522, I've Added a couple of supporting third party references that specifically mention the organization. Please take a look at the list in the section below. Thanks, Samar khurshid (talk) 10:48, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment mentions are OK but Mushtaq Pahalgami is still the focus of most of your sources.  Flat Out  let's discuss it  00:36, 25 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Major Restructuring of Content and References done
 * Carried out major re-structuring of the page's content and references. All claims are now supported by references from independent sources that specifically mention the organization. Please re-examine the following references before deletion.

Samar khurshid (talk) 10:21, 5 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment Thanks, but I have read those cites already – they are in the Mushtaq Pahalgami article, and again the focus is on him. I understand the problem here. Recently, with regard to a different article, I argued that we should keep an article about an organization, but the other !voters kept saying that almost all of the coverage was about the organization's president and spokesperson, so the article should be about her. Well, yes, most of the coverage is going to be about the spokesperson. That's why an organization has a spokesperson, so that reporters will have someone to contact and ask for comments! But I lost that argument and the article was deleted. I really don't think it makes all that much difference. As long as the information is in the Mushtaq Pahalgami article, it won't be lost. We will still have a redirect for "Himalayan Welfare Organization, Pahalgam", and that title will appear in the Wikipedia search box, exactly as if the article still existed. So readers who are interested in the HWO will still be able to find it. – Margin1522 (talk) 11:41, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:55, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:55, 5 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment My point is, while the Organization organizes the medical camps, relief camps, seminars etc., the RTI and PSGA campaigns are run by the President, but only in his capacity as an individual citizen, since that is how the RTI and PSGA Acts work. Also, while some of the newspaper articles are about statements made by the activist on behalf of the organization, others express his opinion and political/ideological position on matters as a private citizen. Which is why, having a 'HWO' redirect to 'Mushtaq Pahalgami' wouldn't exactly work. Denying either HWO or Mushtaq Pahalgami due recognition is discrediting either. Samar khurshid (talk) 18:22, 5 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment I'm sure that's true. But the problem is that we don't have any sources to support that. I read the sources and none of them say anything about how many members there are or what the members do. If you can find some third-party sources that say that, it would be a stronger case. For example, lawyers or activists who speak at the seminars, doctors who help at the medical camps, volunteers who help at relief camps, etc. The language doesn't have to be in English, and the sources don't even have to be online (although that's better). – Margin1522 (talk) 18:40, 5 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment the distinction is straightforward. You need independent, secondary sources about the organisation and you have don't have them. The references you have supplied are ostensibly about Pahalgami and do not provide a depth of coverage required to support this article.  Flat Out   let's discuss it  12:30, 6 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment Flat Out Precisely my point, you've been deleting these references without caring to have a discussion, and despite my appeal to hold deleting dead references, which i said would get fixed by the end of the day (as per word from the newspaper's editors) and did! Quoting from the BRD page, "If your edit gets reverted, do not revert again. Instead, begin a discussion with the person who reverted your change to establish consensus". Hence the suggestion to take this discussion to the AFD entry of this article, where a more objective discussion is goin on.


 * Comment Thanks for the suggestion, here's a list of urdu sources on seminars/relief camps organised by the organization. Please Consider.
 * 1) 'Pahalgam mein nasha aur tambaku mukhalif seminar munaqqad hua', Srinagar, 05th June, 2013, in Srinagar Times, ref. www.srinagartimes.net
 * 2) 'Pahalgam tent union ka aham ijlaas munaqqad', 27th May, 2014, Srinagar Times, ref. www.srinagartimes.net
 * 3) 'Pahalgam ke ghodebanon ko waajib ul qadar raqam wa guzar kee jaye', 31-05-2010, Srinagar Times, ref.www.srinagartimes.net
 * 4) 'glacieron ke phighalne se mahaulyati tawazun bigadne ka imkaan', 15-03-2010, Kashmir News Service, ref. http://www.knskashmir.com/
 * 5) 'Pahalgam ke wildlife zone mein ghair-qanooni taamiraat', 08-02-10, Daily Aftab, Srinagar
 * 6) 'Pahalgam mein rihaish-pazeer aabaadi ke liye master-plan 2004-05 dard-e sar', 11-03-10, Kashmir News Service, ref. http://www.knskashmir.com/
 * 7) 'Pahalgam mein Higher-Secondary ko degree college ka darja dene ke khilaf logon ne kiya muzahira', Ittelaat, Kashmir, ref. [website taken down, newspaper banned]
 * 8) 'Pahalgam mein Master-plan ki khilaafwarzi kar ke mukhtalif maqaamaat par hotelon ki taameer tezi se jaari', 02/01/10, Hind Samachar, ref. www.hindsamachar.in/
 * 9) 'Pahalgam mein hukumat ki jaanib se taamirati kamon aur rihaishi makaanat ki marammat par mukammal pabandi', 12/01/11, Ittelaat, Kashmir, ref. [website taken down, newspaper banned]
 * Samar khurshid (talk) 13:18, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, &mdash; Coffee //  have a cup  //  beans  // 00:06, 13 March 2015 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
 * Comment – Sorry for the late reply, I've been busy with some other things. Thanks for posting these sources. But it's hard to find the original articles since we aren't familiar with Roman Urdu and the links were to the top pages of the sites. Would it be possible to post an explanation of what each of those articles was about, and who wrote it, perhaps on Talk page of the article? What we need to find out is whether the authors of the articles were independent of the organization, and whether they provided enough detail to support a description of the organization. – Margin1522 (talk) 19:37, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, N ORTH A MERICA 1000 09:37, 20 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment Explained the urdu language sources at the article's talk page, as suggested. Yes, all of these references were news-reports by independent sources in different news-papers. please find the details on the talk page.


 * Comment Thank you. With these sources I think it's clear that the organization has been active in holding seminars, demonstrations, etc. Now we need to add them to the article, but for now I'm going to change my !vote to keep. – Margin1522 (talk) 07:22, 22 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment Added the urdu-language references. Thanks for the help and guidance Samar khurshid (talk) 09:59, 22 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment - sources to support the fact that the organisation holds seminars isn't enough for me to change me vote which remains, to redirect to the founder's article. Flat Out  let's discuss it  00:24, 25 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment My vote is a clear keep. Supporting Refrences for the two pages are not the same anymore, and no, it's not just seminars, also PILs, RTIs, demostrations, public meetings, information campaigns etc. etc. Samar khurshid (talk) 18:14, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.