Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Historic list of cities of Europe


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   merge to List of largest European cities in history. causa sui (talk) 00:07, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Historic list of cities of Europe

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Very confusing list that has nothing to do with the WP:NPOV violating title of "historic list". Violates no original research, WP:NOT, and WP:V (not much in sourcing, and other cities can claim a large population in the 1400s and such). I'm surprised the article lasted since 2001 which I think was because of the age of the article. Delete Secret account 21:45, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Europe-related deletion discussions.  — &mdash; alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 00:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions.  — &mdash; alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 00:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep but consider renaming or even splitting into separate articles by date. The basic idea of listing the major European cities at different times is sound, certainly encyclopedic, and indeed can be found in history textbooks. I've seen versions that would cover pre-medieval Europe too. TheGrappler (talk) 01:31, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The subject is encyclopedic, but this violates way too many policies to be salvageable. Secret account 02:20, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Title breaches NPOV but can be resolved by a rename. As I explained, I can't see a breach of NOT. I can't see a breach of NOR or V either, as the list was prepared by someone else and published in what seems to be a reliable source. Your complaint appears to be that the source is incorrect or selective and has missed various other cities off - if you can give an example of that, it suggests you have a second source which could in turn be used to add to the article. (But actually the list looks fairly reasonable to me - urban populations were much smaller back then, and the main urban centers have also changed.) TheGrappler (talk) 03:00, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment. I wonder about the accuracy of these lists. For example, Constantinople is shown as the largest city in Europe in 1700, but not among the top cities in 1800, implying that the population shrunk during that period from 700,000 to less than 120,000. Yet History of Istanbul says that "As the years passed the population increased, from about 80,000 at the death of Mehmet, to 300,000 by the eighteenth century, and 400,000 in 1800." --Metropolitan90 (talk) 08:49, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Just discovered we have another article on this topic, so suggest Merge to List of largest European cities in history? TheGrappler (talk) 19:04, 27 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete not notable as it is not useful and WP:IINFOCurb Chain (talk) 08:41, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Are you sure it's a breach of WP:IINFO? If you actually read WP:IINFO, I can't see anything there that this article violates except that at present it lacks textual description. But that could easily be done: for example, talking about how estimates of historic city populations were made, and why different sources disagree, as well as highlighting important trends in rise/decline of certain cities. That's a question of improvement not deletion, of course. Certainly articles about historic city populations are important for understanding European history, so I don't buy "not useful". TheGrappler (talk) 13:54, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Well it definitely would not be a list if it was a discussion. It may need to be rewritten.Curb Chain (talk) 11:46, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, that's definitely not true. Go and have a look at WP:FL. Many of our featured "lists" (by how we class the article content, and how we write the title) actually have more content in written paragraphs than in the table or list itself! Those paragraphs often introduce the subject area, how the information was gathered and defined etc. But the focus of the article remains the list, which is why it's called "List of..." TheGrappler (talk) 10:14, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Population growth of European cities then?Curb Chain (talk) 23:18, 8 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Bushranger One ping only 05:13, 4 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Weak keep - This is a hot mess, but in theory it could be fixed. Bearian (talk) 16:55, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Weak keep: badly framed article but looking at it shows there is a legitimate topic here that has been covered by reliable sources. I would highly recommend a new name for this article that delineates clearer standards for what this is about. It should NOT be a list of every city that has ever existed in Europe at various times. Dzlife (talk) 17:42, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the name List of largest European cities in history would be clearer, but there's already an article there to which I suspect this content should be merged? TheGrappler (talk) 10:14, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * That's a good target for it. I would support a merge. Dzlife (talk) 16:29, 12 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Merge to List of largest European cities in history, which is what I think this article is trying to be anyway. Ravendrop 00:11, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Merge to List of largest European cities in history. I was going to say the title for this list is atrocious and that List of most populous cities in Europe organized by century would have been more descriptive, but it's close enough in scope and purpose to the other one found by TheGrappler. The merge target is accounting for population, not area or some other measure, even though it fails to make its criteria explicit. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 13:09, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Merge to List of largest European cities in history. Totally redundant. -- P 1 9 9 • TALK 13:52, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Merge without redirect. -- Orange Mike &#x007C;  Talk  19:23, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.