Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hitler's murder paradox


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   merge to Grandfather paradox. Black Kite (talk) 09:42, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Hitler's murder paradox

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It is not a recognized time travel paradox. It is simply a variant of the Grandfather paradox. The page is uncited and appears to be simply the speculations of a few anoinymous editors.  Serendi pod ous  08:19, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Articles for deletion/Log/2013 August 4.  Snotbot   t &bull; c &raquo;  08:33, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 10:00, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science fiction-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 10:00, 4 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep: "recognized time travel paradox" sounds like an oxymoron: time travel is not possible anyway, and time travel paradoxes do not exist. There is no Time Variance Authority in the real world to tell what is and what isn't a time travel paradox: the thing is if they are used in works of fiction or not. There is a big list of examples at Hitler's Time Travel Exemption Act. In fact, of all the times a work of fiction has someone going to the past to change world history, two of each three times it is to try to kill Hitler. Cambalachero (talk) 16:18, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Have you got a reference to 2/3 times it was to kill Hitler. I can only think of one film where it was discussed. Even Dr Who did not attempt to kill Hitler, even when they met. Of these top 20 time travel films, none seems to include killing Hitler.Martin 4 5 1  (talk) 23:14, 4 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Redirect or merge with Grandfather paradox which covers the subject much better. A google search shows the term is quite common. I'd suggest a brief mention in Grandfather paradox would be sufficient.Doctorhawkes (talk) 01:58, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Merge to Grandfather paradox (editing to remove original research/speculation). I did a quick search for sources and the first 2 both claim it's a variation of the grandfather paradox (which is well-studied and absolutely notable):
 * Time Travel: A New Perspective By James Brennan p23
 * IO9 (part of Gawker)
 * There's some other brief discussions of this (A critical history of Doctor Who on television by John Kenneth Muir pp230-1) but not enough to make it notable in its own right. --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:01, 5 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep - or possibly move, since it seems to be more commonly called the Hitler paradox (though that might be ambiguous), and killing Hitler does not necessarily involve the crime of murder. It is a notable science fiction trope, so the article should not be deleted. I have added some references to the article. If the consensus is that it is not notable in its own right, there is an argument for merging several temporal paradoxes into one article, but this paradox is different from the grandfather paradox: it is a variation on the grandfather paradox, rather than a variation of the grandfather paradox; it raises ethical issues and is based not on the impossibility of the situation (given the normal rules of causality) but, for instance, on the lack of motivation to return in time if Hitler was already killed by a time traveller, thus changing history (though already is an unclear concept in the event of time travel). --Boson (talk) 21:38, 9 August 2013 (UTC) Changed. See below.--Boson (talk) 18:31, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * It is a variation of the grandfather paradox; first, because going back in time that far and altering history to such a massive extent is likely to change history so radically that the time traveller is prevented in some way from performing his mission and second, because removing all reason to travel, and all knowledge that there was a reason to travel in the first place, has the same effect as physically preventing travel.  Serendi pod ous  06:24, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes but there is a major difference in that (assuming classical physics and causality) the grandfather paradox is a true logical paradox, whereas the Hitler paradox does not present the same logical impossibility. I'm not sure it's even legitimate to call it a paradox at all (except that Wikipedia rules allow us to use incorrect classifications if they are popular). I suppose one could define the grandfather paradox to include such improbabilities but that rather defeats the point of the name. It would also mean re-writing the Grandfather paradox article, and I'm not sure whether that would be supported by sources. So I would prefer to refer to the two types of "paradox"  as sub-classes of something else - either a temporal paradox (in a loose sense) or an intermediate sub-class of temporal paradox.  --Boson (talk) 16:23, 10 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep Different than Grandfather Paradox because of both ethical and logical consequences. The time traveler having killed Hitler, in the time he would leave to kill Hitler there is no reason to leave to kill Hitler! (Perhaps someone else would be targeted?) The two are similar in some ways, but they are different. One of the great classics of these paradoxes is Heinlein's short story All you Zombies.htom (talk) 17:38, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Merge to Grandfather paradox; specifically killing Hitler is not notable enough to justify a stand-alone page. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:35, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Merge to Grandfather paradox. This is not sufficiently notable in itself for a distinct article. Claims that 2/3 of time travel SF are about this are absurd. This is simply a time travel paradox.Martin 4 5 1  (talk) 05:57, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Merge this, Grandfather paradox, Bootstrap paradox, and Predestination paradox to Temporal paradox. The other opinions have persuaded me that this is only marginally notable in its own right, but it is not the same as the grandfather paradox. However, all are fairly similar types of temporal paradox. The five articles cover very similar ground, and the reader would benefit from having all the discussion in one place, rather than scattered and/or repeated in several places. --Boson (talk) 18:31, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * That's a really good idea. Serendipodous, would you be willing to withdraw this and instead submit a merge proposal as described by Boson above? --Guy Macon (talk) 19:17, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * No, because the predestination paradox/bootstrap paradox are not exclusive to time travel, but also apply to prophecy. Only the grandfather paradox is exclusively a time travel paradox.  Serendi pod ous  19:22, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Let's see how this one goes, and if anyone wants to they can make a proposal along the lines of what Boson proposed later. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:29, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.