Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Holds of Pern


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep, with no prejudice against merging some of the content. Mojo Hand (talk) 03:24, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Holds of Pern

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This does not establish notability independent of Dragonriders of Pern through the inclusion of real world information from reliable, third party sources. Most of the information is made up of plot details better suited to Wikia. There is no current assertion for future improvement of the article, so extended coverage is unnecessary. I am also nominating the following related pages with the same issues:
 * TTN (talk) 00:54, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. TTN (talk) 00:56, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:32, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:32, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science fiction-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:32, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I have notified Talk:Dragonriders of Pern and Talk:Anne McCaffrey, the first as potential merge target and both to notify potentially affected editors who may well not be watching these pages. --Mirokado (talk) 21:16, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science fiction-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:32, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I have notified Talk:Dragonriders of Pern and Talk:Anne McCaffrey, the first as potential merge target and both to notify potentially affected editors who may well not be watching these pages. --Mirokado (talk) 21:16, 3 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep Holds of Pern - This seems like a case where the forked article (Holds of Pern) cannot be reasonably merged back into the primary article Dragonriders of Pern without the latter becoming unwieldy. This sort of thing is done frequently with no problems. The Hainish Cycle for example has articles on each of the books, but also the article Planets of the Hainish Cycle. Similarly Earthsea has articles on the series, the individual books and also Characters in Earthsea. And that's all just things you can get to from Ursula K Leguin's page. This doesn't seem to be any more cruft-y than the equivalent articles for other major series.
 * I'm in favor of a Merge of Fort Hold, Ruatha Hold into Holds of Pern and of Fort Weyr and Benden Weyr into Weyr. I'll leave it to people more familiar with the series to determine if Weyr is more cruft than content. Impression (Dragonriders of Pern) seems to be on the cruft side of the line, but I'll also hold my !vote on that. 0x0077BE  [talk/contrib] 05:49, 3 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep, an overview of locations is appropriate for a long and influential series of fiction, though overall it might be better as a Locations of the Pern series that covers more than just holds. For what it's worth, there's at least two published books covering this topic, The Atlas of Pern and The Dragonlover's Guide to Pern. Andrew Lenahan -  St ar bli nd  16:45, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Just because a series is older doesn't mean unnecessary content should get a free pass. The only reason these currently exist is because they were created when fiction was less regulated. If all of this content was currently in the main article, it would be culled down as cruft or moved to Wikia rather than anyone even thinking about splitting it out. The number of location articles has gone down from somewhere in the thousands to barely a few hundred in the last eight years, so it can't be said that they're appropriate content splits like 0x0077BE mentioned. They need to establish independent notability, and two in-universe, primary guidebooks aren't enough to do that. TTN (talk) 17:19, 3 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Selectively merge all to Dragonriders of Pern. None of these topics have been covered in detail by multiple sources independant of the series so none of them warrant standalone articles. The few articles listed here are just the tip of the iceberg in the Dragonriders walled garden and I hope we can eventually find a consensus to redirect a lot more of them. A separate article for locations of Pern would be an acceptable merge target as well. What is not acceptable is leaving the articles on the locations alone unless they have attracted significant analysis.  Them From  Space  19:36, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Merge Fort Hold, Ruatha Hold into Holds of Pern, and Fort Weyr and Benden Weyr into Weyr. Keep the others.  I think that there is a good case following Summary Style guidance that Holds of Pern and Weyr could be regarded as sub-sections of the Pern article.  I'll admit that the Pern article has a lot of issues, but I feel that merging Holds of Pern and Weyr into that article isn't feasible at the moment.  I must admit that I'm rusting about how WP:SS combines with the notability guidance, but I've always felt that if breaking out a subsection into a separate article makes sense from the parent-article perspective, then it isn't necessary to justify the child article in its own right, but only as a sub-section of a more-widely covered subject.  And, as for sources, we have the "Atlas of Pern" and "Dragonriders of Pern" books, which definitely cover material.  I suspect that we could find sources for Holds of Pern and Weyr from "Dragonwriter", "Dragonholder", "Anne McCaffrey: A Life with Dragons".  There were plenty of reviews of the novels in magazines such as Locus - see here, but they aren't available online, so I can't check the content. Bluap (talk) 15:10, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Merge and trim as appropriate. It is clear that articles about 24 books set in a fictional world need more specific background information than if the setting is familiar to the reader or already available in other articles, and that this should not be repeated ad nauseam in each article. This is common sense. These articles are clearly in need of a rework, though, which I expect will result in fewer articles and some content removed. This work should be done carefully since the book articles are currently written based on the availablity of the extra information. I suggest that editors contributing to this work (who will include me) create and maintain a progress rsport section in Talk:Dragonriders of Pern. --Mirokado (talk) 23:33, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep and list separately. At least Holds and Weyrs is sufficiently important as the major groups of locations for a very important series of novels by a major writer. I'm not sure about the individual ones.  DGG' ( talk ) 02:09, 10 March 2014 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.