Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Holistic Management International


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete.&mdash;Kww(talk) 16:30, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Holistic Management International

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

This fails WP:GNG and WP:CORPDEPTH, especially as to coverage by unrelated parties that is actually substantial. This article's existence can be explained by blatant WP:COI editing (see history). JFHJr (㊟) 01:10, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete, as it was me who added the 'notability' clean-up tag way back when. There was little subsequent improvement and I can't see any independent coverage i.e. not a press release, a HMI publication or something directly related to Allan Savory. Fails WP:NCORP. Sionk (talk) 01:33, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of New Mexico-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:16, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:16, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete, as the person who dug a little deeper into Savory and the related company articles, as another BLPer eloquently put it "a walled garden of spam", a lot of COI editing and, basically, no particular notability for these organizations.  Captain Screebo Parley! 14:11, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep Lets actually do some research into this. First four secondary sources I found mentioning the HMI and their work NRCS, Seed of Texas Magazine, Otago Daily Times, Albuquerque Business First and plenty more considering that institute is 28 years old. So easily passes WP:CORPDEPTH. --Salix (talk): 21:41, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Let's actually check those sources. NRCS is the awarding body reporting on its own grant, not third party coverage, but WP:PRIMARY. Seed of Texas Magazine does not mention HMI. Otago Daily Times likewise does not mention HMI. Albuquerque Business First represents some coverage. It reads like a press release on the grant, but does something for WP:CORPDEPTH, though not enough in my estimation. JFHJr (㊟) 02:14, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * On the Otago Daily Times, he's a certified holistic management educator, guess who did the certification? Training trainers is one of the primary activities of the group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Salix alba (talk • contribs) 13:25, 2 April 2013
 * ...Sounds like WP:OR at best, WP:FAKE at worst. What training group does it mention? HMI? JFHJr (㊟) 12:38, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment in its 28 years its been renamed twice so we also need to consider sources for its previous names and is dependant organisation
 * (a subsidiary org from 1992 to 2010)
 * --Salix (talk): 07:30, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Giving us pieces like Lewiston Morning Tribune, 1995 showing a close link with Washington State University and a $1.1 million grant for holistic management.--Salix (talk): 08:22, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * A good non trivial source is You need a HighBeam Research account to read it. It give a potted history of the group, its methods and a case study.--Salix (talk): 13:25, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * What reliable source indicates the name changes? That alone would show quite a bit of corpdepth. If the renaming does not appear in third party sources, we might as well ignore the notion. This AfD is about HMI. JFHJr (㊟) 15:02, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Cattleman article shows change for 1st to 3rd name. 2nd name comes from examining the run of newsletters and other documents published.--Salix (talk): 16:12, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll also point out that your own comments at the talk page belie your apparent lack of confidence as to how these entities are related. Your comment seems to be the product of speculation, WP:OR, or some kind of WP:SYNTH of primary sources. Notability isn't aggregated among orgs by a shoestring. It's all centered around Allan Savory anyway. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 15:21, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Basically I'm trying to find out as this progresses. There is a lot of literature about this topic which needs dissecting. What is now true is that Savory is no longer part of HMI with his own institute. Any source about HMI after 2009 has nothing to do with Savory.--Salix (talk): 16:12, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll also point out that your own comments at the talk page belie your apparent lack of confidence as to how these entities are related. Your comment seems to be the product of speculation, WP:OR, or some kind of WP:SYNTH of primary sources. Notability isn't aggregated among orgs by a shoestring. It's all centered around Allan Savory anyway. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 15:21, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Basically I'm trying to find out as this progresses. There is a lot of literature about this topic which needs dissecting. What is now true is that Savory is no longer part of HMI with his own institute. Any source about HMI after 2009 has nothing to do with Savory.--Salix (talk): 16:12, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep This is a influential and is gaining momentum. One would wonder why the all of Savories work is suddenly under attack? Because of the Ted Talk? Because of the successes of people like Joel Salatin? Because of the seminars by the USDA in Texas? The Universities all over the world starting to teach HM principles? Why would controversy somehow make this less relevant? However, if it doesn't reach Wiki's notability requirements, then at least merge with HM.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.12.189.106 (talk) 06:57, 3 April 2013 (UTC)  — 68.12.189.106 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * I wanted to add this ref to the above paragraph I wrote but somehow I was unable. and this  Sorry I am new at this.68.12.189.106 (talk) 07:05, 3 April 2013 (UTC) — 68.12.189.106 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * It is not an attack. It's a lack of notability through coverage of Holistic Management International. The learningstore PDF link you provided does not even mention HMI. The press release by the usda has been discussed above: it is coverage by an associated organization, which gives the HMI grants. It is not third party coverage. Please see WP:IRS. JFHJr (㊟) 14:58, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I apologize if I am not following a procedure you wanted. I chose the learningstore link to show the influence of the WORK on the mainstream educational system. If you scroll down you will find a book by Savory on holistic resource management in the suggested further reading section. Anyone researching grazing systems will inevitably run across Savory's work eventually. I realize the work is not the same as the organization promoting the work. But they are related and wiki just took down the page for the actual management system. (Which I am now attempting to rewrite in accordance to wiki guidelines). But I am a new at this. So please allow some leeway for me to learn the ropes. Oh and BTW I posted the USDA link because you said the reuters news release of the same event was not sufficient. So I posted the source of the same event released by USDA and not any organization related to HMI. I see now that Salix beat me to it!Redddbaron (talk) 18:33, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's a bit cynical of you to delete a (USDA) non-primary source while the AfD is in progress. Why not wait to see whether anyone can find suitable coverage? Sionk (talk) 15:32, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Redirect this, and all alternative or early names, to the article on allan Savory where they are sufficiently discussed. It's reasonable that somebody might know the name of the organization and nothing more, and this will provide the information. as the reasonable solution. I think there's a certain prejudice here regarding names that include the word "holistic"--I sympathize entirely, but there are steps sort of outright deletion.  DGG ( talk ) 00:14, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Please keep this page. It's a real non profit organization that's been around for over 25 years. Here are several articles from non-HMI publications...      — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sgl11453 (talk • contribs) 20:13, 5 April 2013 (UTC)  — Sgl11453 (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Wrong. HMI runs holisticmanagement.org. That's about half of the sources you've offered. The Press Releases are not coverage by unrelated parties, but an agency tooting its own horn. the Heritageradionetwork.com episode doesn't even mention HMI at all (WP:FAKE is a theme here!). Barkingcatfarm is likewise not reliable coverage: it's the blog of a group reporting on itself being selected by HMI. Not coverage of HMI! Countryworldnews does give some passing mention of the company, but it does not come close to WP:CORPDEPTH. JFHJr (㊟) 15:22, 6 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Request: Please re-list this debate for a more thorough consensus. JFHJr (㊟) 00:37, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Undecided I'm searching for sources at the moment, and have found a few which might be good. I'll add them to the article, but I just wanted to add a note here in case someone comes along and closes the AFD. SmartSE (talk) 19:09, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak keep I found a few more references which I think are just enough to meet the GNG. It's not possible to access all of them in full, but I think that these are sufficient to show that HMI is notable and is distinct from Savory. The $4.8m grant in 2010 also demonstrates some importance. That there were COI problems with the article in the past is not a reason to delete it. Salix alba is also right to point out that the organisation has been known by several other names in the past, and there may well be other sources that I haven't found. SmartSE (talk) 19:40, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Note User:Redddbaron has !voted on the talk page. I'll take the liberty to copy their keep rationale here. SmartSE (talk) 09:27, 9 April 2013 (UTC)


 * [ I've taken the liberty of removing it. Pasting other peoples' comments here will be confusing for us and them too. Redbarron has already participated in this discussion so evidently knows where to come if they want to participate further ] Sionk (talk) 10:09, 9 April 2013 (UTC)


 *  keep  : At least for now. I just rewrote the Holistic management page to meet wiki standards. It took me a week but a lot of the research is overlapping. I agree the article doesn't meet wiki standards, but I will try to clean it up and see what people think. The reason I posted that in the talk page instead of here is that I have voted a weak keep here already (before I had my own wiki account) and already entered the discussion as redddbaron the same day I opened my account but was working on the other page first. Notability of an organization requires that their WORK be considered first, then if that WORK is notable, AND the organization can be sourced properly, then it deserves a place in wiki on its own page IMHO. The USDA link establishes at least enough notability to keep it up for now. If not, then I agree it could be merged as a small paragraph on BOTH the Savory (co-founder) and the Holistic management pages. But from the organizational standpoint, it would seem to me a stand alone article (rewritten to wiki's high standards) would be preferred over writing things twice (or more). So give me a few days please. I have a good weather day and might not get much done today, but more rain is coming, and that will give me time to do a rewrite, or at least try.Redddbaron (talk) 17:19, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * OK I added several links. Here is some more. http://hi.wiser.org/organization/view/1ee053013be43654dd575ee1a7ff9803/section/main http://www.sustainable-properties-forsale.com/sp_hm.html This says Africa Centre of Holistic Management is a regional office of HMI. http://www.ecoagriculture.org/case_study.php?id=75 but when I google ACHM I get Savory Institute instead? I think they possibly could still be linked somehow? Plenty of notability in the other links I already added to the page, but if Savory Institute is still linked somehow that would nail it...as the Buckminster Fuller award....Or maybe that is just before the split?Redddbaron (talk) 06:48, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * keep I don't know what's going on, I made the changes and added plenty of links, yet someone else crossed my keep out. Well my vote is still vote is still keep. Just because it wasn't perfect originally doesn't mean it isn't plenty good enough now to keep. It still probably isn't perfect. All wiki pages get edited and change over time, hopefully for the better. It is certainly good enough now to keep.Redddbaron (talk) 06:56, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You can only vote once and as you say you previously voted as an IP it counts twice. Probably the thing to do is strike out the IP vote with ... so only one vote is counted.--Salix (talk): 07:19, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. Thanks for describing the proper procedure to me.Redddbaron (talk) 04:41, 12 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Merge into Allan Savory. This page is really straddling the border of notability. I think the best bet is to add a section into Savory’s page and keep a close eye out for COI edits. In the future if it receives more coverage it can be split off. J04n(talk page) 10:41, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Problem of that is Savory and HMI have parted company and are now quite separate.--Salix (talk): 12:11, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Then only merge the first 3 sentences in the 'About' section. J04n(talk page) 15:16, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.