Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Holocene (Portland, Oregon)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. -- Scott Burley (talk) 01:08, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Holocene (Portland, Oregon)

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

I am looking through items in categories and spotted this. You will get a lot of "hits" on Google, because it's a music venue and the local alternative bi-weekly the Portland Mercury has a significant amount of their publication dedicated to event listings. It's lacking WP:SIGCOV (significant coverage with depth) in WP:AUD (regionally or greater circulated) independent reliable source that is expected for WP:ORG (business and companies notability)expectations, I really doubt it. Graywalls (talk) 21:26, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

The article creator has responded to AfD asserting significant coverage. Lots of citations added, lots of contents added. A good amount of them are of vanilla event, vanilla event 2, .... (reference: event calendar) entries. Here's a partial copy of what one of those citations look like. WP:ORGDEPTH and WP:N considers citations of this nature have little meaning in notability. Event listings of this nature is equivalent to listing out some random flights on an airport article and whether those things should even be included just because they're verifiable is questionable. Furthermore, dropping names of people who held events there does not further notability for Wikipedia purposes. This is because WP:INHERITORG states that "An organization is not notable merely because a notable person or event was associated with it." This place is of only local interest.

(partially pasted. This appears within a long list that appears in the reference) Tin House AWP Party

Portland publisher Tin House throws a party in conjunction with the AWP conference, with acclaimed authors Hanif Abrurraqib, Erica Dawson, Morgan Parker, and Tommy Pico reading from their latest collection, and DJ Mami Miami heading up a after-reading dance party. (9 pm, Holocene, $5)

As you can see, it's a part of an event calendar. Many Portland Mercury references are of this nature. Willamette Week is as well to some amount. (those two are our local "alternative weekly" papers)

Because my previous nomination on run of the mill establishments have been met with comments like "there are two dozen sources", I am addressing regarding the large number of citations on this article. At the time of writing this argument the article boasts 41 cites (some cites with more than one sources)

24 portlandmercury.com; of those fifteen of are specifically titled "things to do" which are routine lists of events. 13 wweek.com (Willamette Week) The alternative weeklies together represent 37 of references. Two Portland travel guides listings. Many of them are "the list of bests", and events list.

Policy based consideration for sources of this nature:
 * Foot notes #3 and #7 in WP:N addressing Routine announcements, or series of coverage in same periodicals and journalists.

WP:ORGDEPTH examples of what we consider trivial coverage: coverage of purely local events, incidents, controversies

inclusion in lists of similar organizations, particularly in "best of", "top 100", "fastest growing" or similar lists

Graywalls (talk) 08:41, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

I request the quality of AfD argument and participants' comment and relevance to applicable guidelines given weight over tallying up "votes". This is per WP:CONSENSUS and WP:DEFINECONSENSUS. Thank you. Graywalls (talk) 15:55, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

The article has fluffed up even more with more lists of events that amounts to things like this Billboard.com article that amounts to nothing more than a line item that shows Holocene was a stop in Ionnalee's tour. Basically the article's creator is continuing to stack it up with these entries. Itemized lists of events held at an event center does not add notability. Graywalls (talk) 16:27, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

additional source analysis on the article's talk page Graywalls (talk) 13:28, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Also, I think it's worth noting that the circulation of the Oregonian is 170-185,000 while the Willamette Week is 65,000 and Portland Mercury is only 45,000 in evaluating WP:AUD. Graywalls (talk) 17:03, 26 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. Graywalls (talk) 21:32, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Oregon-related deletion discussions. Graywalls (talk) 21:32, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. Graywalls (talk) 09:28, 14 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep per GNG (disclaimer: article creator): I've expanded the article quite a bit, and I'm only on page 6 of ~5,790 results for "Holocene"+"Portland" at Google. Sources include books and newspapers, and while I acknowledge there are many passing mentions as an event venue, I believe there's enough coverage to justify a short article about the business' history, events and activities, and reception. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 03:22, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I should also note, I combed through many Google returns but I've not yet browsed the Oregonian archives. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 16:43, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Those are things that should have been done prior to the article even being created, are they not? You created this article in February 2019, so not much time has passed to affect the availability of sources sine the time the article was created. I am not seeing a sufficient evidence has been presented to support its likely a significant coverage intended for significant audience exists on the business that is the subject of this article. Graywalls (talk) 18:12, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I don't even understand what you're trying to say here. I'm sorry, but you and I aren't really working well together lately so I'm just going to drop from this thread and let other editors weigh in here and elsewhere we've gone back and forth. ---[[User:Another Believer|Another Believer ]] ( Talk ) 18:16, 16 April 2019 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete I’m afraid I just don’t get the special thing there seems to be on Wikipedia about venues in Portland. There always seems to be a few editors convinced that a night club or restaurant in that city is notable because it’s really well known on the Portland scene and has hundreds of local refs to back it up. This sounds like a great place but there are dozens of similar places in every city in the world and they’re mostly not notable, even if warmly endorsed by their local press. Mccapra (talk) 01:35, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Dusti*Let's talk!* 01:38, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep Meets GNG, well structured, informative, reliably sourced. DrewieStewie (talk) 08:00, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment: I think it's important editors are aware the nominating editor has been harassing and hounding the article creator and nominating multiple articles for deletion that Another Believer has created. That ongoing discussion is here on the Administrators' notice board. --Kbabej (talk) 16:43, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep. and  covered the reasons to keep this article well. As DrewieStewie stated, this article "Meets GNG, well structured, informative, reliably sourced." There is specific coverage from Willamette Week and The Oregonian in multiple articles. --Kbabej (talk) 16:46, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I always conduct a preliminary research before an AfD, but its not perfect. I'm aware there are mentions of this business in the Oregonian, such as "youth organization (Altamura, who books bands to play at the Southeast club Holocene, is also managing director of Music in the Schools)." as a brief mention within an article about something else. 2016 a brief mention "At Holocene on Saturday night, you can dance to 50 years of summer jams. We look forward to hearing something from the Grease soundtrack." among a list of other items. 2012. There are quite a few mentions in a passage like this but I didn't find anything with Significant coverage in the Oregonian or other papers with readership reach outside of the greater Portland area. The alternative papers Willamette Week and Portland Mercury will likely have things about local businesses in a greater depth as they're papers with great local emphasis. If you happen to have the link to significant coverage in the Oregonian, or greater reaching papers, please don't hesitate to share the links. Graywalls (talk) 00:53, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. Graywalls (talk) 01:12, 22 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep GNG met, including The Oregonian, newspaper of record for the Portland area; also mentioned in the books Moon Portland and in Best Places: Portland. I should note that the nominator of this article attacking the creator for stuff he "should have done before creation" is inappropriate and un-collegial ☆ Bri (talk) 02:17, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Entertainment-related deletion discussions. Graywalls (talk) 21:20, 25 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.