Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Homer Lafian (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. postdlf (talk) 21:04, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Homer Lafian
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Duplicate of previously deleted article. Feickus nominated this for deletion (diff 1, diff 2) but did so incorrectly. I am correcting it for them, but also lean delete. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:53, 16 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete I was still working on the page but thanks. Individual does not meet the notability of WP:GNG, WP:BIO and WP:SOLDIER. Multiple articles of Service Cross recipients have been deleted and multiple silver stars does not constitute a page. Feickus(talk)
 * I suggest reading a bit about Twinkle if you plan to work in deletions. It makes the process much, much, much, much, much simpler. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:56, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Articles for deletion/Log/2013 October 16.  — cyberbot I  Notify Online 13:16, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. The Bushranger One ping only 15:56, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:56, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:56, 16 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete NN soldier. Buckshot06 (talk) 21:36, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete. Two second-level decorations do not qualify him for inclusion, although three might. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:59, 17 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep -- No, Lafian did not win a Victoria Cross or Medal of Honor, medals that would have made him pass a special notability guideline, all on their own. But very few of the subjects of our biographical articles meet our notability criteria for a single act.  Most individual's notability is determined by considering ALL the factors that contribute to their notabiity.  Winning lesser medals contributes towards establishing his notability. The references to him in the book Triumph and glory: Armenian World War II heroes span 9 pages -- a chapter.  Having a book written about one would strongly contribute to one's notability.  Surely a 9 page chapter comes pretty close to establishing his notability all by itself?   And combined with being awarded significant foreign medals on top of significant American medals -- shouldn't this push him over the top?  Geo Swan (talk) 02:08, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
 * In other fields, like academia, various forms of peer recognition help establish notability. Being made a Dean -- being appointed to a named "chair", is a form of peer recognition that helps establish notability.  Academics who are honored by having their peers write a book, or hold a conference, devoted to their work have that considered as a strong factor helping to establish their notability.  Other fields have other ways peers recognize exceptional individuals, and those forms of peer recognition should contribute to the individual's notability.
 * The article lists half a dozen famous individuals he met -- which doesn't establish notability as notability is not inherited. But he was chosen as one of Eisenhower's bodyguards.  I suggest this was a significant kind of peer recognition.  Semyon Timoshenko, a senior Soviet General, personally awarded him a Soviet medals.  I doubt that many heroic GIs were awarded medals by Soviet Generals.  So it too is a kind of peer recognition.
 * I've participated in other discussions where individuals from the military wikiproject have seemed to want to take the position that if an individual's medals didn't include their country's highest order medal, or if they hadn't been promoted to General or Admiral, they couldn't be notable. Personally, I don't see this as a defensible position, when the individual has other factors that make them notable.  Those in the military wikiproject sometimes have an unfortunate tendency to totally discount non-military factors that help establish notability.  Lafian, for instance, was the co-chairman of the UAW Joint Skilled Trades Apprenticeship Committee -- falls short of establishing his notability, it doesn't establish any military notability.  What it does establish is peer recognition -- within his union.  Geo Swan (talk) 02:08, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Co-chairing one committee of one union does not make one notable. As to medals, our usual standard is one first-level or two second-level decorations. I will personally usually also vote to keep for three third-level or one second- and two third-level decorations. But two third-level alone? No, doesn't meet the notability bar (his other medals are so low that many other countries wouldn't even count them as medals, just commendations if that). Neither does the fact he was of Armenian descent and therefore features heavily(ish) in a book about Armenian-American war heroes just because he happened to be a member of a minority who won a couple of decorations. Neither does meeting some famous people or being a bodyguard (one of many) to a famous person. Nobody disputes this man's courage, but he needs to have more notability for an article. Many thousands of people have won two third-level bravery decorations. The fact is that other than this he didn't do anything else particularly notable in his life. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:38, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Armenia-related deletion discussions. Geo Swan (talk) 02:16, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Armenia-related deletion discussions. Geo Swan (talk) 02:16, 18 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Weak keep Delete unreliable sourcing [old rational follows]. I'm convinced by Geo Swan's argument this case doesn't fit the rules perfectly when looked at as a whole it makes sense this individual is outside the norm and notable. The lack of diverse sourcing is a problem. Has anyone looked for older sources from the 1940s, or Armenian-language sources, or sources ca. 2010. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 06:56, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete A search of books in World Cat for Ararat Heritage Publishing returns only three books, all of which were written by Richard N Demirjian:, and Google Books appears to only return the same three volumes: with references to one book which may be a RS which references one of Demirjian's books. As such, this book appears to have been either self-published or published through a tiny vanity press, and it isn't a useful source for establishing notability. The outlandish claims which are referenced to the book (for instance, that Mr Lafian single handedly destroyed six tanks and massive mistakes about the deployments of the 82nd Airborne Division) also illustrate the problems with it - no professional publisher would produce anything with such blatantly wrong material. The fact that these obvious errors have reappeared in the article despite the problems with the material which were pointed out in its earlier incarnation make me wonder whether this article has actually been developed in good faith. The two other sources offered here are also weak, and not reliable sources. As such, notability isn't established. Nick-D (talk) 04:29, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Dirk John Vlug destroyed 5 tanks in a single day for which he won the Medal of Honor. However our source says one "battle" which could be over many days/weeks which is plausible for someone with an anti-tank weapon. Can't comment on the 82nd deployments. The publisher evidence is pretty damning on reliability - take away that one source and there is nothing left. Changing my vote to delete. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 05:10, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Any infantryman who knocked out six tanks in a single battle would have either received the medal of honour or be the subject of serious literature complaining about the injustice of him having missed out on the medal. Such an achievement was very rare. Nick-D (talk) 05:13, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.