Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hoofmaster


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was delete per consensus of established editors. --Core desat 08:00, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Hoofmaster

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

Article asserts author's notability as an author of gaming books, so I removed the speedy tag and moved the discussion here. No opinion from me. Article is full of irrelevant nonsense about cows, which needs to be removed even if article is kept. NawlinWiki 17:34, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete - This was a CSD just a few hours ago by Dweller ... see User_talk:KathrineS ... then it was recreated and the db-repost tag was summarily removed ... this article is just vanispamcruftisement disguised as a biography ... lacks any WP:A to establish WP:N. &mdash; 17:44, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Speedy Delete Vanispamcruftisement put up today because Gothador is being deleted. Matt Brennen 18:10, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep  Not spam. An article regarding a notable programmer and author. The cow links are VERY appropriate as they are pertinant to the person in question. The article was reposted after a 'hangon' notice was blatantly ignore this morning. KathrineS 18:13, 1 May 2007 (UTC) — User:KathrineS (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Weak Delete. I originally put a  on this, but the books listed were written by him, and one of the links is to a scan of an article about the subject.  Still, he seems to fall short of the requirements of WP:BIO.  If not deleted, the article should be moved to "Andrew Mulholland". Gtg204y 18:18, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete unless notability is demonstrated by independent, reliable sources. --Dhartung | Talk 18:53, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Note: see also Articles for deletion/Gothador.--Dhartung | Talk 18:55, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Also of relevence is this article: Fallen Sword. DarkSaber2k 13:33, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - Also also of relevence is the fact that this AfD has been linked to from this forum thread (around page 5 or 6 I think). DarkSaber2k 14:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * for clarification a search on amazon.com shows 4 books written by this author. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/103-7944629-2440630?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Andrew%20Mulholland  I'm not sure how to put in links yet, I'm still new to posting, editing etc.  Maybe why I avoided it before.  Neither here nor there, amazon.com is an independent and reliable sourse. SatinNSilk 19:12, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that would be enough, but I could continue with the other books if you like.SatinNSilk 19:48, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete No claim of notability in the article, almost a speedy candidate but not quite due to the claim of having written books. Also unsourced and looks pretty much unsourcable.  The fact that his "studio" gets less than 100 unique Google hits doesn't help matters any. Andrew Lenahan -  St ar bli nd  19:21, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * and you keep pages on WWE wrestlers, and little known authors such as Allen Apell? I fail to see the difference.SatinNSilk 19:27, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The Authoring appears bogus or self published. The ISBNs were all invalid. Also, no Andrew Mulholland ever graduated from Abertay. There was a Darren P. Mulholland, but he did not graduate with honors. Matt Brennen 19:33, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I haven't checked the ISBNs but the books were certainly on Amazon with the subject of this article named as the author. Adambro 19:35, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * So amazon.com is not a valid source? That is where I got the ISBN's and the newspaper said he graduated from Abertay, not I.SatinNSilk 19:38, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Amazon.com does not have the resources to check all the ISBNs, only prints whatever the author claims. Feel free to run the ISBNs yourself if you don't believe. Also feel free to go to the Abertay website and look up the alumni. Matt Brennen 19:44, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * google search on ISBN-10: 1556228686: **http://www.alibris.com/search/books/isbn/1556228686 **http://www.aewnet.com/Store/1556228686.aspx **http://www.allbookstores.com/book/1556228686/Andrew_Mulholland/Developer's_Guide_To_Multiplayer_Games.html
 * http://www.biggerbooks.com/book/1556228686
 * http://www.thehobbydirectory.co.uk/22-13384091-1556228686-Developers_Guide_to_Multiplayer_Games_Wordware_Game_Developers_Library.html
 * http://thattechnicalbookstore.com/book.aspx?isbn=1556228686&cp=0

It's not close to being enough. Anybody can provide fake ISBNs to a drop shipper, and have the ad show up on google. Run the actual ISBNs through the Library of Congress (you can do it right here on wiki) and the numbers come up as nothing. They are bogus. These books are most likely self published. The author adding fake ISBNs to make them look legit. Self published books are not wiki sources. Also, feel free to examine the alumni at Abertay. We don't need any more Essjays in Wikipedia. Matt Brennen 19:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I did run ISBN-10: 1556228686 through the Library of Congress with the following result: http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?Search_Arg=1556228686&Search_Code=STNO&PID=6511&SEQ=20070501160116&CNT=25&HIST=1SatinNSilk 20:05, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm struggling to see any doubt about whether these books are genuine. They are listed on Amazon as been published by Wordware Publishing Inc and appear on their out of print list. I'd also question the assertion that the degree is fake on the basis that it seems unlikely that all graduates would be listed. Adambro 20:14, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep The books are genuine and have sold worldwide. I'm not sure where you looked up the ISBN, but they are also genuine. Andrew Mulholland graduated, with honours from the University of Abertay in Dundee. Would you like a copy of the certificate, or is that not independant/valid either? Not all graduates pay the fee to be listed as Alumni, I'm sure you are aware of this. Are you now trying to suggest that Andrew Mulholland does not exist? KathrineS 20:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC) — KatherineS (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * I also found I had one of them written down wrong, but the results were ISBN: 1556220448
 * for ISBN 1556220766 http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?Search_Arg=1556220766&Search_Code=STNO&PID=6511&SEQ=20070501160116&CNT=25&HIST=1
 * and for ISBN 1556229631 http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?Search_Arg=1556229631&Search_Code=STNO&PID=6511&SEQ=20070501160116&CNT=25&HIST=1
 * All coming back as attributed to Mr. Mulholland.SatinNSilk 20:11, 1 May 2007 (UTC) — SatiNSilk (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * It should be noted that the question about whether or not to keep this article does not just involve whether the books are genuine, the real question is whether the subject meets the criteria set out in WP:BIO. Adambro 20:14, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Thanks for running those ISBNs. My Library of Congress search filters out vanity publishers like Wordware, who printed the 25-print runs for andrew. Vanity published books are not valid wiki-sources. Matt Brennen 20:18, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I still say that as a programmer and an author he holds as much interest as many on here. I have things to actually do tonight, so I will look them up sometime tomorrow.  I have delayed things that needed attending long enough.  I only delayed them because it seemed like if I did not, this issue would be killed without further thought. So for you all, have a good night.SatinNSilk 20:21, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete The author's works do not appear to rise to the level of significance indicated at WP:BIO for inclusion in Wikipedia.  PCock 20:59, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete. I don't question the existence of the person or books, but I don't see non-trivial independent secondary sources for verification and notability. --Wafulz 22:13, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep It's a nickname for a legitimate business owner with verifiable sources of business and income. What, are you going to ask for Bill Gates to be removed next? --NytDunne 23:59, 1 May 2007 (UTC) — NytDunne (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Delete junk JuJube 03:12, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete possible speedy. I deleted this as patent nonsense and as an article lacking context earlier today and in my view the article is still nonsense. The article does not mention the books currently although it did today. Unless the books are published under the name Hoofmaster, the article should be in the name of the author. Further, they should demonstrate that the author has some level of notability. Capitalistroadster 03:52, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete not notable per WP:BIO. --Dweller 08:39, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep - A notable author and programmer

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Programming-Multiplayer-Wordware-Developers-Library/dp/1556220766/ref=sr_1_1/203-7610856-3469561?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178107760&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Developers-Guide-Multiplayer-Wordware-Library/dp/1556228686/ref=sr_1_4/203-7610856-3469561?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178107760&sr=8-4

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Java-Programming-Wordware-Developers-Library/dp/1556229631/ref=sr_1_8/203-7610856-3469561?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178107760&sr=8-8

His newest game has flown since its release and has a much higher Alexa rating than the webgame standard - Outwar.com - http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?url=www.fallensword.com

--Radneto 13:17, 2 May 2007 (UTC) — Radneto (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Delete per Wafulz. Existence of the person isn't the issue. Notability, verifiability and (once again for this company) reliable sources for the first 2 issues are the problem. DarkSaber2k 13:24, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * What has happened to the books that were listed. These books are genuine and were integral to this document. KathrineS 15:10, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * No-one is questioning the existence of the books. The issue is that no one in the entire web seems to have given a damn about them outside of your group. As per the other Hunted Cow vanispamcruftisement pages that were deleted, no-one has been able to provide any reliable, non-trivial, independent third party sources.DarkSaber2k 15:12, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Additionally, KathrineS, please do not attempt to circumvent the deletion process by reposting the article under a different name. DarkSaber2k 15:25, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I was not circumventing anything - I was advised by several Wiki editors to rename the article - the issue came about due to it's attempted deletion whilst I was trying to change the name. Removing the books that were listed and discussed simply backs up the dossier of mismanagement and bias we have already submitted to the appropriate higher editors/officails KathrineS 15:38, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

After watching and attempting to help on this site, I now see why high school and college educators no longer accept it as a valid reference. I had heard that when you attempt to update an article that you are met with a lot of resistance unless you are 'in the groove' but I thought that was a myth because I had always viewed this as a reliable source. I guess this was wrong. Thank you for proving the rumor mill correct. Happy editingSatinNSilk 15:47, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Frankly I don't know how many more times you have to be told that publishing 4 books the rest of the larger world apparantly ignored is no claim to fame. You assert the author is notable becuase of the books, but have still been unable to prove the notability of the books themselves. Your argument is fundamentally flawed because you are trying to claim the subject is notable becuase he wrote books that no-one has been able to prove the notability of. It's like trying to make a house of cards without the bottom layer.DarkSaber2k 15:41, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Your so desperate to play the victim and score some sympathy votes that you overlook the fact that practicaly everyone has provided links to enough information to answer all your questions, and the policies and guidelines go into detail that would be impractical to go into in an AfD, fully explaining why people are saying what they are saying. I know these facts will probably be rejected as contrary to whatever fantasy conspiracy theory you've all got in your heads, but they are the facts nonetheless. It's actually the people like you, who can never back there claims up despite loudly and persistently making them, who would turn wikipeida into an unreliable source. DarkSaber2k 15:52, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for providing helpful constructive criticism to Wikipedia. We constantly strive to be the best encyclopedia we can be.  If you have the time, could you point us to some examples of how other encyclopedias have handled their "Hoofmaster" articles, so that we may perhaps learn something from their example? Andrew Lenahan -  St ar bli nd  16:38, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Information was provided regarding these books and has been removed, twice. How many thousands of people have to know an individual before you accept they exist? Andrew Mulholland/Hoofmaster is extremely notable amongst the million plus players of the 6 games he has created. The 4 books that were mentioned are still used and respected within the computer programming world. Maybe this article requires someone more familiar with it's content as a judge to what is notable? KathrineS 16:12, 2 May 2007 (UTC) — KatherineS (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Let's get real. He's sold a grand total of maybe eleven copies of the books. Amazon even counts how many are left, lol. Matt Brennen 19:44, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

And here we go. The WP:BIO notability run-down. Listed below are the criteria from WP:BIO. In the interests of space, I'm only copying the relevent General and Creative profesionals sections. The full text is available just beyond the link. I know it says these are only guidelines, but I reckon failing to meet any these should be a pretty good guideline of non-notability.


 * In general:
 * A credible independent biography.
 * The person has received significant recognized awards or honors.
 * Wide name recognition
 * The person made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in their specific field.
 * Multiple features in credible news media.
 * Commercial endorsements of notable products


 * Creative professionals: scientists, academics, economists, professors, authors, editors, journalists, filmmakers, photographers, artists, architects, engineers, and other creative professionals.
 * The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by their peers or successors.
 * The person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory or technique.
 * The person has created a significant or well-known work, or collective body of work, which has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews.
 * The person's work either (a) has been displayed in a significant exhibition or as a monument (b) has won significant critical attention, or (c) is represented within the permanent collection of a significant gallery or museum of more than local significance.

And it goes without saying that any claims to passing any of the above would have to be proven with reliable sources. DarkSaber2k 19:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * After my own research into Abertay Alumni, his claim does indeed seem to be bogus. I suspect maybe he was a drop-out. Please see that COMPLETE list of Abertay Alumni here: http://www.abertay.ac.uk/Alumni/LostList.cfm?L=M&key= There is only 1 Mulholland, a Darren P Mulholland who graduated in 2001. DarkSaber2k 13:28, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Your information is incorrect. Not only did Andrew Mulholland attend - but he graduated with HONOURS. This is how Hunted Cow was created...it was his and Glenn Murphy's honours project. I'm betting 'you' won't find his name either, despite both of them graduating. That list you have is NOT a complete list. Anyone with an ounce of commons sense can see that. Do you honestly believe only 3 people graduated in 2005 and only 12 in 2004? As I previously stated, you can actually pay to be on the alumni. You are basically making a contribution to the Uni. However, I am glad that you continue with this line of investigation as it helps to prove the issues I have already raised. On several occasions I have asked as to where I should send a copy of the graduation certificate (and sales figures for the books if you want those too), and as of yet I have had no response other than further accusations of falsehood. KathrineS 21:27, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete - I don't wish to get involved in the whole did he/didn't he graduate debate. For the purposes of this AfD whether he has a degree is irrelevant. Personally, I would doubt whether the alumni website would list all graduates. The real matter for consideration is whether the subject meets the primary criterion set out in WP:BIO; "A person is notable if he or she has been the subject of secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject." I do not think the subject meets this basic requirement, there seems to be just the one article in the newspaper about him. For this reason I suggest this article is deleted. Adambro 21:42, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.