Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Horizontal versus vertical


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Well this AFD is piled with all types of poor policy based arguments from single purpose keep accounts, to the last two delete commentators, one of which made an strange comment that he would delete the obviously notable, and core parent articles as WP:OR. So it comes down to the decision of the article meeting WP:NOR, and Psychonaut kinda rebutted it stating that the content, while it does need cleanup, could be mergeable. That said AFD is not cleanup, and try to discuss some sort of merge in the talk page, and if the WP:NOR problems persists renominate this article for deletion. Secret account 05:58, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Horizontal versus vertical

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A huge pile of WP:OR with trivial references and it isn't even self consistent, e.g. " A horizontal line is any line normal to a vertical line. Through any point P, there is one and only one vertical line and one and only one horizontal line. " Andy Dingley (talk) 15:29, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:07, 11 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete - Poorly sourced original research. - MrX 19:05, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep. I am creator of the article. Also,consider the possibility of merging it with the old wiki article Horizontal plane which has NO sources, unlike the present article proposed for deletion which at least has readily checkable references. The two articles are useful for physics education and complement each other with overlap. Both the articles contain statements which are readily attributable, like the statement "Paris is the capital of France". As for the charge by Andy Dingley that the article is not even self consistent, I do not agree. In the two dimensional case, once the vertical direction has been designated, there is exactly one vertical and exactly one horizontal through any point P in the plane. Shanker Pur (talk) 20:22, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete. The article is WP:OR to a certain extent but also a topic that isn't really worthy of inclusion. There's no real justification for having an article comparing horizontal and vertical when they each have their own article to be seen. Ducknish (talk) 23:01, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Keep . The author here again. Thank you Ducknish for toning down the WP:OR issue. The article is fresh but there is nothing original in it except the use of diagrams which I mostly drew myself. But to take your main point, I disagree. The concepts of horizontal and vertical are inter-related. One is defined in terms of the other with some degree of freedom as to which is the primary concept. By discussing them in one place, by contrasting horizontal with vertical, the symmetries and the asymmetries can be displayed, as the article illustrates. Misconceptions that arise from not appreciating the inter-relationship between the two concepts can be dispelled by discussing the two together. It should be a useful article for the physics teacher and student. But this is not an argument against improving my article or merging with other wiki articles. I have already mentioned the long standing wiki article Horizontal plane which my article complements.  Shanker Pur (talk) 01:17, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep. The article adds useful material for those interested in physics education.Scotpina (talk) 11:01, 12 March 2013 (UTC) — Scotpina (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Keep this article. Andy Dingley's charge of inconsistency is incorrect. This article is of interest to a variety of disciplines. All the facts mentioned in the article are known. Johny the jump (talk) 12:19, 12 March 2013 (UTC) — Johny the jump (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Two freshly created user accounts, and you're both joining us already here at AfD. How nice. Will User:Seal Boxer be along later?
 * As to "inconsistencies", then read the quote within the nomination above and ask how many horizontal lines are there through point P ? Andy Dingley (talk) 12:40, 12 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment Keep . It is good to see new contributors to wikipedia. As for the charge of inconsistency, I hope the following helps. The charge is based on a misreading of the article and a confusion between two dimensions and three dimensions. In two dimensions, once one has designated the vertical, there is through any point P in the plane, only one vertical and only one horizontal. This is quite clearly laid out in the article. In three dimensions, the situation is quite different: once the vertical has been designated, then through a point P, there is only one horizontal plane but a multiplicity of vertical planes.Shanker Pur (talk) 15:22, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "a confusion between two dimensions and three dimensions. " Exactly. That's the problem with this whole article. It's badly written crackpot science that over-emphasises the exceptional at the cost of the mundane. Is the intersection of two planet-sized horizontal planes really the primary issue for a general public level encyclopedia article? Andy Dingley (talk) 15:37, 12 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment Keep . (I am a contributor). It appears that the charge of inconsistency against the article has been dropped. So that is useful because it would be difficult to justify the inclusion of a self-inconsistent article in an encyclopedia. Actually, the article should help to sort out the type of confusion which led Andy Dingley to make his accusation of inconsistency. Concepts of horizontality and verticality are very slippery and change their meaning as one goes from two dimensions to three, as one goes from a flat earth scenario to a spherical earth, as one goes from a uniform sphere to a non-homogenous spinning earth. Perhaps the article should be expanded but not deleted. Let it grow. Shanker Pur (talk) 18:20, 12 March 2013 (UTC)Shanker Pur (talk) 19:17, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
 * ''"I agree that it is nice to be allowed to join you all on AfD using a freshly created user account. The text is clearly written and very relevant. What is the definition of "general public ?". I believe I am a member of the "general public" and I understood the article in question when I first read it. The issues/facts included in this kind of article are what motivates people in their pursuit of knowledge. I look forward to many more articles of this calibre.Johny the jump (talk) 18:34, 12 March 2013 (UTC)Johny the jump (talk) 18:30, 12 March 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johny the jump (talk • contribs) 18:27, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Process check - Traditionally, each editor gets one !vote in an AfD discussion. If you wish to add comments, you should write comment instead of keep in front of your comment, and indent the comment if it is a reply to another editor's comment. - MrX 18:35, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment. Thank you Mr X for helping a relative newcomer. Should I go back and delete the superfluous 'keeps'? I assumed that it was one vote for one person but that I had to keep on indicating that I had not changed my mind!! Shanker Pur (talk) 19:30, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. You may want to change all but one "keep" to "comment", which will make it easier for the admin who closes this discussion. - MrX 19:54, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I have struck out the superfluous 'keeps' and entered 'comment' on your behalf, Shanker Pur. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 21:01, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you Malcolmx15. I appreciate your deletions and entries. So much to learn.Shanker Pur (talk) 01:55, 13 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep The article usefully distinguishes the senses of horizontal and vertical in various contexts, such as 2 dimensions, 3 dimensions, a spherical earth, etc. Its points are correct, and there is no inconsistency.DonaldAGillies (talk) 15:43, 13 March 2013 (UTC) — DonaldAGillies (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * This question is addressed to Andy Dingley and other editors who have voted to delete. The article has evolved significantly in the last few days, hopefully for the better. If you have a look at it and change your mind, are you allowed to change your vote to keep? Shanker Pur (talk) 09:11, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Merge from horizontal plane and keep. The article has a number of issues that need to be addressed.  However, these can all be handled through means other than deleting the entire article:
 * Many of the references aren't reliable. The claims are sound, but better sources are required.
 * There are some statements in the "Observations" section which look like they might be original research. Either sources must be added showing these observations to have been previously published, or else the observations should be removed from the article.
 * Some of the material presented here is redundant with that of horizontal plane. I'd like to see the purely geometric aspects of "horizontal" and "vertical" migrated from horizontal plane to this article, leaving in the former the material specific to radio science (as is currently the case with vertical plane).
 * The text isn't really written like an encyclopedia article. It needs editing for tone, style, and structure.
 * —Psychonaut (talk) 09:39, 14 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment: I have contributed to both the articles mentioned by Psychonaut and I very much agree with him about merging the two. There is nothing original in either of the two articles (except the diagrams but that does not matter). All the facts are well known and long known even if they may strike some readers as slightly surprising and that should not be a reason to exclude an article from an encyclopedia. I will look into improving the sources. Shanker Pur (talk) 16:04, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: I have just spotted another article - Vertical direction - which is relevant to this discussion. It is an old wiki article, is unsourced and in content overlaps with the article Horizontal versus vertical. Further to Pyschonaut's suggestion, this article could also be merged into Horizontal versus vertical which I created. Shanker Pur (talk) 11:19, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, horizontal versus vertical, vertical direction, and the non-radio science parts of horizontal plane are all redundant with each other and should be merged into a single article covering both horizontal and vertical directions (each of which can't be fully discussed without reference to the other). Call it horizontal versus vertical or horizontal and vertical or whatever.  —Psychonaut (talk) 07:41, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "Horizontal and vertical" is probably a more elegant choice although "Horizontal versus vertical" does raise the question as to which of the two is primary. It seems that the two concepts are on par in the 2-D context but in 3-D "vertical" has priority. The situation is fluid and the modern laser level technology may reverse the situation. Shanker Pur (talk) 09:26, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment Does WP:NOR apply to Horizontal plane and Vertical direction? Shanker Pur (talk) 16:57, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete Interesting, but NOR DavidTTTaylor (talk) 13:49, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete Fails WP:GNG and WP:NOR. PianoDan (talk) 14:04, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Two things - 1. The existence of another similar article may not be used as a justification for an article - they must stand or fall on their own. 2. That said, I would support deleting each of those articles as OR as well. PianoDan (talk) 02:21, 19 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.