Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Horned Skull of Pennsylvania


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   redirect to Sayre, Pennsylvania. (non-admin closure) TBrandley (what's up) 00:47, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Horned Skull of Pennsylvania

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This myth is widely reported on any number of conspiracy theory websites, but cannot be corroborated by any legitimate source. The fact that most sites report that the skulls were sent to the "American Investigating Museum of Philadelphia", an institution that has no existence other than in these myths, gives extra cause for skepticism, as does the fact that, although the skulls were reported stolen and never seen again, all sites have the same modern color photograph to show. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 22:14, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:HOAX. NawlinWiki (talk) 22:27, 19 February 2013 (UTC)


 *  Delete: Redirect to Sayre, Pennsylvania: I did a bit of Google research on this and discovered an intriguing account of how the urban legend got started.  Ultimately though, it's a disproven WP:FRINGE claim that fails WP:GNG. --Mike Agricola (talk) 00:06, 20 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete I smell a hoax. I can haz snow? § FreeRangeFrog croak 00:08, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Redirect Per Tokyogirl. Better outcome than deletion and the notability of the legend is at least established, per WP:FRINGE. Reversing !vote. § FreeRangeFrog croak 19:47, 20 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment Given the number of sites that carry this story, I'm not entirely sure that it doesn't qualify as a notable hoax. That's why I brought it here for discussion.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 04:06, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I see your point, and I did see a large number of hits. But I have to wonder how we sift the reliable sources from the unreliable ones. I couldn't see a single one that would give me the warm and fuzzies. § FreeRangeFrog croak 04:09, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Question: If one or two reliable sources can be found, would it be a better idea to create a small sub-section in the article for Sayre, Pennsylvania, since that's where it was supposedly found? Of course this would require at least 1-2 sources that are reliable. I'm thinking that if there's enough to show that it is at least taken somewhat seriously as a hoax but not enough for its own entry, this might be a good compromise. I'll see what I can find.Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡)   04:37, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I would be all for that, and a redirect. § FreeRangeFrog croak 05:56, 20 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment. I found a few relatively reputable-ish sources that comment upon the skull, which I'll charitably call an urban legend. Considering that the skeletons were conveniently "misplaced", I do think it's a hoax, but it's a notable enough one that it got mentioned in a few textbooks, including one academic textbook published through Scarecrow Press. I'm still finding more, but so far it looks like even if this isn't enough for an article, it should be mentioned in the page for the town. Real or not, it has gotten quite a bit of coverage for a hoax.Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡)   05:43, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Sayre,_Pennsylvania. I found just enough to show that it's worth noting in the general article for the town, but I don't really see enough to where this is a notable enough hoax/urban legend to where it merits an entry of its own. One of the books calls them "horned giants", so that's what I optioned to label the section as. I have no true objection against this article name redirecting there, as this seems to be an unofficial name for it. My only objection to labeling the section under "horned skull" is that this doesn't encompass the whole of the urban legend. I've also labeled it as an urban legend because while it's highly unlikely that this is anything other than a hoax, there's nothing to really prove or disprove the claims, so it seems to more fit an urban legend feel than anything else. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡)   06:31, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: I was convinced by the redirect argument, so I changed my vote accordingly. I would note however that with regards to Sayre, Pennsylvania, I do not regard Brad Steiger and Jim Marrs as "relatively reputable-ish sources," though the wide distribution their books receive are indicative of a certain level of popular interest in the urban legend.  Interestingly though, upon doing some further research on clues posted in, I did discover reports of a skeleton of a seven foot tall skeleton found nearby (see  and ) along with a second discovery of human "bones covered with nearly a bushel of broken antlers of Virginia deer" .  These reports correlate partially with the sources you uncovered, and I can see how all this could get distorted through retelling into the urban legend.  At the very least, the paper published in American Anthropologist  about the seven foot tall skeleton seems to directly relate and would make a good source for that part of the claim. --Mike Agricola (talk) 22:24, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmm... anything that we can add to the subsection? My first impulse is to add the book sources, but I don't want to write anything that could be seen as OR. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡)   05:14, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I added a sentence to Sayre,_Pennsylvania noting that the official excavation reports written by Donehoo, Skinner, and Moorehead contained nothing substantiating the urban legend. However, I looked over the source for the discovery of the seven foot tall skeleton  more closely and it appears that it not only was part of a completely different excavation, but also it took place in a different town, beneath what is now the Spalding Memorial Library-Tioga Point Museum, so I didn't include it in the article about Sayre.  Moreover the only source I could find connecting that discovery to this urban legend was the blog entry I mentioned earlier, a source which WP wouldn't regard as reliable.  I should also note that Donehoo, Skinner, and Moorehead excavated around ~1916, not the 1880s as the article currently states, and it's doubtful that the "American Investigation Museum" even exists; I ran that phrase through Google and the only results it returned were about the horned skull!  Basically the urban legend fails verification on multiple levels. --Mike Agricola (talk) 20:56, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Pennsylvania-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:00, 20 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Redirect per Tokyogirl79.--Staberinde (talk) 17:14, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.