Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/House of Lichtenberg


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   speedy deleted per WP:CSD blatant hoax, see evidence below, also WP:CSD author requests deletion (by filing this AfD) - take your choice. We do not need to let this run any longer. JohnCD (talk) 19:24, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

House of Lichtenberg

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

This article was made before we got in contact with the Bavarian state archives for proof, Karl Franz was only made a count not a Prince. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lichtenberger (talk • contribs) 20:47, 5 June 2010


 * Keep and correct The title doesn't say anything about a prince and erroneous information inside the article can be fixed within a minute. De728631 (talk) 21:13, 5 June 2010 (UTC) Changed my mind to delete. The findings I have explained on the article's talk page make me believe that this alleged House of Lichtenberg as described here, is not any older than its official website. De728631 (talk) 16:22, 6 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Copied from the article talk for inclusion in this log:
 * What I can tell already from scratch is that File:Greatarmssmall.PNG is based on a principal arms style with a prince's hat as crest and a principal mantling, so if Franz Karl was "only" made a count, it is most certainly not his coat of arms. Could it be that this coat of arms was only recently created? The following is an extract from the chronicle found on the town of Lichtenberg's website:


 * 1248 Lichtenberg is inherited by the Counts of Orlamünde.
 * 1427 Lichtenberg is sold to the Earls of Waldenfels.
 * 1618 Sale of Lichtenberg to the Lithuanian Duke and Prince Janusius Radziwill
 * 1628 Lichtenberg sold again, to Margrave Christian of Brandenburg
 * 1792 Lichtenberg becomes Prussian.
 * 1810 Lichtenberg becomes Bavarian.


 * There is no mentioning of any "Counts of Lichtenberg" as such. De728631 (talk) 15:38, 6 June 2010 (UTC)


 * J. B. Rietstap's Armorial général p. 64 mentions the Barons of Lichtenberg in Saxe-Coburg, which would have included the town of Lichtenberg, Upper Franconia, the blazon is completely different from File:Greatarmssmall.PNG though: argent (or azure), two chamois horns sable ajar. De728631 (talk) 16:19, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually no - that's the [de:Fürstentum Lichtenberg], which was an "exclave" of Saxe-Coburg - it was so remote from their base of operations that they sold it off.Yngvadottir (talk) 18:55, 6 June 2010 (UTC)


 * For reference, the blazon of File:Greatarmssmall.PNG would be: or, an eagle sable, clawed and tongued red, legs and beak or, with a coronet or [note: this alone is a violation of traditional German heraldry which prohibits the use of two metals upon each other]; a mantling gules and ermine with a prince's hat. De728631 (talk) 18:30, 6 June 2010 (UTC)


 * '* Keep provided some more referencing is added. Peridon (talk) 22:13, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Strong Delete Just noticed that the AfD nom comes from the creator of the article. Apart from which, I quote from the About Us page of the Official Website: "The Fürstentum Lichtenberg Foundation was founded in March 2010 by Prince Maximilian to manage the Principality financially and universally to bridge the gaps between the Government, Princely House, and the people of Lichtenberg. The foundation handles donations to keep Lichtenberg tax free." My first thought is 'Who are they trying to kid?'... The only Germanic Principality in political existence is the Fürstentum Liechtenstein (interesting similarity of name), which is not tax free, however. I do wonder how many of the 'people of Lichtenberg' know about their young prince. I suggest looking at the application form for 'citizenship' (which makes reference to the State Secretary for the Interior' and to the 'Sovereign Prince' (and I note that one of the two places your info will be stored is on a "flash dive" (sic) in the Interior Office). Possibly a new micronation? Possibly not... Peridon (talk) 18:26, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Possibly a db-hoax. De728631 (talk) 18:33, 6 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions.  --  Beloved  Freak  23:56, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete Searching for sources, I kept running into other Lichtenbergs - but zero on this house. So I have to conclude that they are not notable. Either that or the info is seriously wrong. This DAB page on de.wikipedia lists numerous places called Lichtenberg, and several castles, and leads to a whole additional DAB page for Burg Lichtenberg, including the castle at the Bavarian Lichtenberg. There was a Principality of Lichtenberg, but it was at the other end of Bavaria and the territory is now partly in Saarland, partly in Rhineland-Palatinate. It came into existence in 1816 and received both the designation as a principality and the Lichtenberg name in 1819. There is also a former Alsatian House of Lichtenberg, first mentioned in the 12th century, which died out in the male line in the 15th century, after which the name continues through the Counts of Hanau-Lichtenberg. These Lichtenbergs and their Burg Lichtenberg are quite prominent online and in Google Books, but I just can't find the family this article refers to, in either German or English. So possibly there is some confusion with one of the other Lichtenberg locations or histories, but unless that is the case, I find no evidence of notability. Those with expertise in heraldry and documentation of nobility may find something, but I haven't. Yngvadottir (talk) 16:22, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment: I don't claim to be an expert in heraldry or genealogy but I have been into my own family's history and a possible coat of arms so I can tell that there is something totally wrong with this article. And as German nobility have always been quite aware of their heritage I do wonder why it would have been necessary to contact the Bavarian state archive for details only 100 years after leaving the country. De728631 (talk) 16:37, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I note from the page that this principality was in the possession of a familiar dynasty for Brits - (as we call it) Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (or probably some variant of that - they got a bit complicated at times). And, unless I read it wrongly, the principality was sold to Prussia in 1834 (subject to a ground rent of 80,000 thalers annually. (I am open to correction on this.) Peridon (talk) 18:50, 6 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete per Yngvadottir's research. The only source is the one-page website, hosted in the US, which is still talking about a "Princely House" of Lichtenberg although that claim has been retracted here. This looks extremely dodgy - I note that the website is inviting "donations". At best, this seems to be an attempt at self-promotion to the nobility. JohnCD (talk) 17:29, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment: a whois lookup for the domain reveals that the site is registered to a certain Mr. J. Langel. The article Maximilian Graf von Lichtenberg by User:Lichtenberger states that Maximilian von Lichtenberg is the son of Marie von Langel. You don't simply invent a von nor do you leave it away if you're a member of true German nobility (who would certainly not fall for such attempts of self-promotion because they know their peers). Furthermore: "Registrant Organization: Lichtenburg". Burg or berg? Sounds all the same in English, so who cares? De728631 (talk) 17:54, 6 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment Oh dear. There's another one. The Principality of Lichtenberg ruled by HSH Princess Maya - and this one has an airline! http://www.principalityoflichtenberg.org/page4.html Peridon (talk) 18:57, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You can see what that one's up to: "The Sovereign may grant honourary status vis-a-vis diplomatic appointments, grant chivalric orders, titles, or other ranks of nobility or distinction" - in return for a fee, no doubt. Perhaps this one hopes to go into the same business, but it might turn competitive... JohnCD (talk) 19:13, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.