Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Howard Schneider (Florida dentist)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Both the balance of arguments and the relevant BLP considerations favor deletion. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:58, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Howard Schneider (Florida dentist)

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WP:BLP1E/WP:NOTNEWS Ahecht (TALK PAGE ) 17:10, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

EDIT: WP:PERP seems to apply more here, since the victims were not renowned national or international figures, it is WP:TOOSOON to call this a "well-documented historic event", and he has not been convicted in a court of law. --Ahecht (TALK PAGE ) 15:18, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Note to closing admin: Two of the keep !votes here were either from single-purpose accounts or sockpuppets.


 * Keep. BLP1E doesn't apply, since the alleged abuse has been going on for nearly 40 years (according to Sarris), and Schneider has had brushes with the law before (including once in 2000). FiredanceThroughTheNight (talk) 17:46, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete. NOTNEWS really applies here. It is admittedly serious if a dentist has performed unnecessary procedures on children (especially if it is extraction of permanent teeth). Careful investigation, proof that this has taken place, would be useful. The international media has whipped up a firestorm of rumor and innuendo, though, about one dentist, including a phone video of a child apparently screaming in a dentist chair. Some complaints are that he capped teeth that should have been pulled, others that he pulled teeth that should have been capped. It is possible that he's looked after poor children who had not properly seen a dentist, who had teeth in more poor condition than a non-medicaid dentist. There are many many incompetent professionals, it is alarming that while nothing is proven about this particular one (though it is likely he is incompetent or unethical) a small case has blown up to an international news story with many confusing and contradictory accusations arising suddenly. A tabloid newspaper can just join the rumor mill. Wikipedia can be more thoughtful.Createangelos (talk) 23:53, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
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 * Comment: There are a great deal of sources available speaking toward this individual's many-years-long series of alleged multiple and repeated crimes, but under WP:PERPETRATOR we need tread lightly.  The historic significance of the crimes is indicated by persistent coverage of the event in reliable secondary sources that devote significant attention to the individual's role, and we have those in spade. WP:BLP1E is less applicable as we have coverage of the years long and repeated accusations of the different offenses of 1) alleged "Medicaid fraud" and 2) alleged "child abuse". BUT a person who is known only in connection with a criminal event or trial should not normally be the subject of a separate Wikipedia article if there is an existing article that could incorporate the available encyclopedic material relating to that person. Is there such an article?  Schmidt,  Michael Q. 10:11, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Not currently. But it might be possible to rename this article and change the focus to refer to Schneider's alleged crimes rather than Schneider himself. Perhaps the article could be called Jacksonville dental abuse scandal or something like that. FiredanceThroughTheNight (talk) 13:26, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
 * We can't write an article about his "crimes" at this time, because none of them are verified. Everything is "alleged" and "accused". --MelanieN (talk) 13:09, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Florida-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:04, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:04, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:04, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:04, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

PAGE''' ]]) 15:18, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep - BLP1E doesn't apply,. end of story. this is notable.--BabbaQ (talk) 18:20, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Okay, but WP:PERP applies. His victims were not renowned national or international figures, it is WP:TOOSOON to call this a "well-documented historic event", and he has not been convicted in a court of law. --Ahecht ([[User_talk:Ahecht|'''TALK

PAGE''' ]]) 22:33, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep – As has been stated already, BLP1E doesn't apply as the as the abuse went on for several years, making the abuse multiple events. SilverSurfingSerpant (talk) 11:26, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * NOTE: This user has been blocked as a sockpuppet. --Ahecht ([[User_talk:Ahecht|'''TALK
 * Yes, but the sockpuppet wasn't being used for vote stacking (since the puppetmaster didn't also !vote here), so that's not entirely relevant. FiredanceThroughTheNight (talk) 04:17, 31 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep even though the article is almost wholly negative, it's well-sourced, and the sources show significant coverage over a long time period. Should it be moved to Howard Schneider (dentist) though? The word Florida seems unnecessarily specific. Joseph2302 (talk) 11:30, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * There is another practicing dentist by the name Howard Schneider, who lives in New York. Many people have gotten the two mixed up, and the Dr. Schneider in New York has received hate mail and threats from people confusing him with the Florida dentist, so I thought it best to clarify in the title that this article was about the Florida dentist, not the New York one. FiredanceThroughTheNight (talk) 15:18, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually the sources DON'T show "coverage over a long time period". All the sources are from May 2015. --MelanieN (talk) 13:16, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * This source is from April. FiredanceThroughTheNight (talk) 04:21, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh, right, April 29. Good thing you caught in that gross overgeneralization. Can we have an overdue close on this, please? EEng (talk) 04:58, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

PAGE''' ]]) 14:59, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep Notable. May soon become more relevant and used to describe an abusive dentist or overtreating dental clinic. i.e. "My dentist is a Schneider", "Schneideresque dentistry". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mny5339 (talk • contribs) 19:14, 25 May 2015 (UTC)  — Mny5339 (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * WP:CRYSTAL is not a reason to keep an article. --166.20.224.11 (talk) 14:46, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Seriously? That argument is textbook WP:ATA: "It is difficult to determine precisely what people believe in the present, even more difficult to predict how perceptions will change in the future, and completely unnecessary to even try." --Ahecht ([[User_talk:Ahecht|'''TALK


 * Delete It is alleged that the abuse goes back many years, but all of this is being reported only in the last week, so it's BP1E and/or TOOSOON. EEng (talk) 04:53, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
 * If this happens to be one of those "wikipedia not being news" cases, close the article down for now, and wait to remake the article until the dentist gets enough coverage to be more than just a news article. It'll be interesting to see where the backstory of this evil scumbag will go. Seriously, stay the hell away from that dentist. 和DITOR  E tails 00:31, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Strong Delete Violates WP:BLP and WP:PERP. Everything is "alleged" or "accused". None of the allegations against him have been proven, they are just allegations - apparently most of them filed by plaintiffs in civil suits; if ever there was an unreliable source, it is the claims made in a civil suit! Others are complaints of child abuse - complaints which anyone can make, justified or not, and the authorities must investigate. If he ever gets actually convicted of anything, we can rewrite the article. In the meantime, it is a mess of unverified claims and innuendo, and should have no place at Wikipedia. --MelanieN (talk) 03:03, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete. If WP:NOTNEWS or WP:BLP isn't enough, then I'm happy to go with WP:IAR.  We're an encyclopedia.  We're not a tabloid, and we're not a police blotter.  -- RoySmith (talk) 18:01, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.