Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hunan Coal Group


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy keep‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. Withdrawn by nom, no delete opinions. I consider my previous involvement primarily minor and neutral and this close mostly procedural but if there is anything else please feel free to revert the closure and/or seek another closer without consulting me. (non-admin closure) Alpha3031 (t • c) 15:09, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Hunan Coal Group

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

I did WP:BEFORE and searched for independent reliable sources to establish the notability of the subject as per WP:GNG and WP:NCORP, but I found nothing that can establish notability. Here is a breakdown of cited sources:
 * 1: http://www.hnmyjt.com/Item/2.aspx (This is the official website of the Company and is WP:PRIMARY, so it can't establish notability, The full article is just rely on this source)
 * 2: https://www.hunan.gov.cn/hnszf/hnyw/zwdt/201212/t20121210_4719900.html (A government site, can't really establish notability, Just listed hundreds of companies in China)
 * 3: https://clb.org.hk/en/content/hunan-coalminers-strike-over-privatization-plans (Just Passing mention to Hunan Coal Group and the article is only about the "Strike" of the workers of the company, not about the company.
 * 4: https://caijing.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202107/20/WS60f66c85a3101e7ce975a86d.html (The article is talking about the history of coal in Hunan, no coverage of the Hunan Coal Group at all. Also, At the end, the article mentions:"(Author Liao Jianxiang is Secretary and Chairman of the Party Committee of Hunan Coal Group Co., Ltd.")
 * 5: https://www.gov.cn/xinwen/2018-05/22/content_5292722.htm (Government site, Even I skip that part, the article does not give in-depth coverage of the subject, it talk about the Jailed of Chairman of Hunan Coal Industry) Grab Up  -  Talk  12:10, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Companies and China.  Grab Up  -  Talk  12:10, 25 May 2024 (UTC)


 * This article has been reviewed and rated Stub-class, which means it is a promising starting article, though large space remains for improvement.
 * Hunan Coal Group is a large coal mine company of more than 30,000 employees, the largest in Hunan Province of China. This fact alone may make it worthwhile for an introduction in wiki.
 * As for the reliability of the sources, I will discuss later. Ctxz2323 (talk) 00:24, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Ctxz2323: As you said, “Hunan Coal Group is a large coal mining company with more than 30,000 employees, the largest in Hunan Province of China. This fact alone may make it worthwhile for an introduction in Wiki.” From which Wikipedia rule did you get this information? Go and read WP:NCORP. It requires multiple in-depth coverages from reliable, independent sources to establish notability. It doesn’t really matter how big the company is; if the company is significant, it should obviously get coverage from reliable sources. Also, an article getting reviewed does not guarantee that it will be there forever. Grab Up  -  Talk  03:22, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.  The article notes: "在今年年初我国南方部分地区遭受的罕见冰雪灾害中，湖南省煤业集团(以下简称湘煤集团)遭受巨大损失，在恢复和重建过程中急需有关部门伸出援手. 今年1月中旬以来的冰雪灾害持续时间长，破坏性大，历史罕见．给湘煤集团造成了巨大损失， 此次灾害申，湘煤集团的51对矿井停电15天至25天，其中停电5昼夜以上的矿井21对，停电15昼夜以上的矿井11对，停电25昼夜以上只能采用柴油机发电保井的矿井5对. "  From Google Translate: "In the rare ice and snow disaster that hit parts of southern my country at the beginning of this year, Hunan Coal Group (hereinafter referred to as Hunan Coal Group) suffered huge losses and urgently needed help from relevant departments in the recovery and reconstruction process.  The ice and snow disaster since mid-January this year lasted for a long time, was extremely destructive, and is rare in history. The disaster caused huge losses to Xiang Coal Group. According to the disaster, 51 pairs of mines of Xiang Coal Group were without power for 15 days to 25 days, including 21 pairs of mines with power outages for more than 5 days and nights, 11 pairs of mines with power outages for more than 15 days and nights, and 25 pairs of mines with power outages for 25 days and nights. The above 5 pairs of mines can only use diesel engines to generate electricity to protect the mines."   The article notes: "本报讯1月中旬以来拘冰冻灾害，导致湖南电网严重受损，造成大面积停电，致使湘煤集团51对生产矿井中，有44对矿井不同程度遭受了淹井、淹水平的重创. ． 目前，湘煤集团正抓紧受灾五_L井排水工作，力争早日恢复生产. 据统计，此次冰灾中，因矿井停产、设备损毁、旁屋倒塌和各项救灾投入给湘煤集团造成的损失已超过5亿元，有十多万职工家属正常生活受到严重影响. " From Google Translate: "This newspaper reported that the freezing disaster since mid-January has caused serious damage to Hunan's power grid and caused widespread power outages. As a result, 44 of the 51 pairs of production mines of the Hunan Coal Group have suffered varying degrees of flooding. At present, Hunan Coal Group is stepping up the drainage work of the disaster-stricken 5_L well and striving to resume production as soon as possible. According to statistics, during this ice disaster, the losses caused to Hunan Coal Group by mine shutdowns, equipment damage, side building collapses, and various disaster relief investments exceeded 500 million yuan, and the normal lives of more than 100,000 employees' family members were severely affected."   The article notes: "湖南煤业集团(简称湘煤集团)是以涟邵矿业集团、白沙煤电集团、资兴矿业集团、长沙矿业集团、湘潭矿业集团和省辰溪煤矿6家国有骨干煤炭企业重组而成的大型企业. 其中前三家进入2005年全国煤炭工业100强企业行列. " From Google Translate: "Hunan Coal Group (referred to as Xiang Coal Group) is a large-scale enterprise reorganised from six state-owned backbone coal enterprises: Lianshao Mining Group, Baisha Coal and Electricity Group, Zixing Mining Group, Changsha Mining Group, Xiangtan Mining Group and the provincial Chenxi Coal Mine. Among them, the first three entered the ranks of the top 100 enterprises in the national coal industry in 2005."   The article notes: "湘煤集团由湖南省6家国有骨干煤炭企业重组而成：涟邵矿业集团、白沙煤电集团、资兴矿业集团、长沙矿业集团、湘潭矿业有限责任公司和湖南辰溪煤矿. 其中前三家进入2005年全国煤炭工业100强企业行列. 这6家企业集中主要省属煤炭资源，资产组成十分优良. 据悉，组建后的湘煤集团拥有生产矿井50对，总资产为40亿元，3年后煤炭产量将达到1000万吨. ... 该集团的组建，正式吹响了湖南省新一轮煤炭资源整合升级行动的号角. " From Google Translate: "Hunan Coal Group was reorganised from six state-owned key coal enterprises in Hunan Province: Lianshao Mining Group, Baisha Coal and Electricity Group, Zixing Mining Group, Changsha Mining Group, Xiangtan Mining Co., Ltd. and Hunan Chenxi Coal Mine. Among them, the first three entered the ranks of the top 100 enterprises in the national coal industry in 2005. These six companies concentrate mainly on provincial coal resources and have very good asset composition. It is reported that after establishment, the Xiang Coal Group has 50 pairs of production mines with total assets of 4 billion yuan. Coal output will reach 10 million tons in three years. ... The establishment of the group officially sounded the clarion call for a new round of coal resource integration and upgrading actions in Hunan Province."   The article notes: "公开资料显示，在今年4月22日召开电煤运行形势座谈会上，湖南经信委副主任杨晓晋在会上要求火电企业要优先采购湘煤集团、资江煤业集团等省内生产的电煤" From Google Translate: "Public information shows that at a symposium on thermal coal operation situation held on April 22 this year, Yang Xiaojin, deputy director of Hunan Economic and Information Technology Commission, asked thermal power companies to give priority to purchasing electricity produced in the province such as Hunan Coal Group and Zijiang Coal Industry Group."  The article notes: "5月，12家火电企业从省内煤矿企业购进电煤量有所提高，但从湘煤集团购进的煤量仍在逐步下降. 上述数据显示，湖南省内最大的煤炭企业湘煤集团并未从“煤电互保”中受益. 对此，有分析人士认为，湖南的“煤电互保”政策保护了事实上中小煤企，不利于淘汰落后产能. " From Google Translate: "In May, the amount of thermal coal purchased by 12 thermal power companies from coal mining companies in the province increased, but the amount of coal purchased from Xiang Coal Group was still gradually declining. The above data shows that Hunan Coal Group, the largest coal company in Hunan Province, has not benefited from the "coal and electricity mutual guarantee". In this regard, some analysts believe that Hunan's "coal and electricity mutual guarantee" policy actually protects small and medium-sized coal companies and is not conducive to the elimination of backward production capacity."   The article notes: "据介绍,湘煤集团于2008年底与新疆有关方面签署协议，获得在吐鲁番、哈密等地200亿吨煤炭资源开采权，并成立湘煤集团新疆能源有限公司. 近日，湘煤集团在吐鲁番沙尔湖煤田钻井探煤,发现厚达151.14米的煤层. " From Google Translate: "According to reports, the Hunan Coal Group signed an agreement with relevant parties in Xinjiang at the end of 2008, obtaining the right to mine 20 billion tons of coal resources in Turpan, Hami and other places, and established the Hunan Coal Group Xinjiang Energy Co., Ltd. Recently, Hunan Coal Group was drilling for coal in the Shaerhu Coalfield in Turpan and discovered a 151.14-meter-thick coal seam." </li> <li> The article notes: "作为我省基础能源供应主力的湘煤集团，克服年初冰灾带来的重大影响，在部分骨干矿井停产达30天的情况下，上半年仍供应电煤131.4万吨，比去年同期增加10.5万吨. 冰灾期间，湘煤集团51对矿井中，有44对不同程度受损. " From Google Translate: "As the main provider of basic energy in our province, Xiang Coal Group overcame the major impact of the ice disaster at the beginning of the year. Even though some backbone mines were suspended for 30 days, it still supplied 1.314 million tons of thermal coal in the first half of the year, an increase of 105,000 tons over the same period last year. Ton. During the ice disaster, 44 of the 51 pairs of mines of the Xiang Coal Group were damaged to varying degrees." </li> <li> The article notes: "湖南省煤業集團有限公司是經湖南省人民政府批准設立的大型省屬國有獨資企業，是全國煤炭50強企業，是該省政府確定的全省能源保障主平台和重點支持加快發展的企業. 據悉，該公司於2006年6月19日挂牌成立，現旗下擁有全資、控股子公司37家，擁有煤礦總數60個，總設計生產能力3000萬噸/年. " From Google Translate: "Hunan Coal Industry Group Co., Ltd. is a large-scale provincial state-owned enterprise established with the approval of the Hunan Provincial People's Government. It is one of the top 50 coal enterprises in the country. It is the main platform for energy security in the province and an enterprise determined by the provincial government to focus on accelerating development. It is reported that the company was established on June 19, 2006. It now has 37 wholly-owned and holding subsidiaries, a total of 60 coal mines, and a total designed production capacity of 30 million tons per year." </li> </ol>There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Hunan Coal Group, or Xiangmei Group, full name Hunan Provincial Coal Industry Group , to pass Notability (organizations and companies), which requires "significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 09:49, 26 May 2024 (UTC) </li></ul>
 * @Cunard: But where are the links for me to verify them? How can I confirm that these sources are reliable? Additionally, the majority of them are only a paragraph or two . How can this be considered in-depth coverage of the subject? These are trival mentions, Read WP:SIGCOV to know what In-depth coverage means. Grab Up  -  Talk  09:59, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * These are offline sources. The quotes I provided are not the full articles. For most of the articles, there is more coverage of the company that I did not quote. The quotes I provided are sufficient to demonstrate the company meets Notability (organizations and companies), which says: "The depth of coverage of the subject by the source must be considered. Trivial or incidental coverage of a subject is not sufficient to establish notability. Deep or significant coverage provides an overview, description, commentary, survey, study, discussion, analysis, or evaluation of the product, company, or organization." Cunard (talk) 10:08, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Cunard: Offline articles is a very good excuse to my question, that how can I or someone verify them? Also, you can add whatever you want and justify them to establish notability. There is no proof that these coverages are from reliable independent secondary sources. Grab Up  -  Talk  10:25, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * With the responses "a very good excuse" and "you can add whatever you want", there is nothing substantive I can or want to say in response. Cunard (talk) 10:32, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Cunard: Hey, I want to know how and where you get these articles. I mean, obviously, you don't have all these printed copies in your home, so I just want to know where you search and get them. Grab Up  -  Talk  10:36, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Generally, people access would access subscriptions to non-FUTON sources through a library (usually a national library, state library or academic library). Individual subscriptions do of course exist, but they are usually more expensive than they are worth. The Wikipedia Library is a good resource generally, but I do not believe it has much in the way of Chinese (and other East Asian) sources. I believe some US institutions have access to the newspapers in question via East View or Apabi, for example. Some other institutions may instead have some specific sources in their microfilm collections, though as those do not usually have full text indexes they are much more annoying to search. Alpha3031 (t • c) 05:26, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but I wanted to know from him where he got these. His lack of reply to my question is raising some concerns about these offline sources. Grab Up  -  Talk  07:44, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Doczilla  Ohhhhhh, no! 19:15, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep per the sources found by Cunard. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 03:47, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * May I know where you confirmed that these coverage are real and are from reliable secondary sources? Grab Up  -  Talk  04:14, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I also feel that, as a reviewer, GrabUp should be more neutral and objective. At the beginning of this page, you said:
 * "I did WP:BEFORE and searched for independent reliable sources to establish the notability of the subject as per WP:GNG and WP:NCORP, but I found nothing that can establish notability. Here is a breakdown of cited sources: ..."
 * Let me put some words on your comments.
 * 1: http://www.hnmyjt.com/Item/2.aspx (This is the official website of the Company and is WP:PRIMARY, so it can't establish notability, The full article is just rely on this source)
 * ctxz2323: But getting some data and facts, instead of self-flattering words, from there may be ok.
 * 2: https://www.hunan.gov.cn/hnszf/hnyw/zwdt/201212/t20121210_4719900.html (A government site, can't really establish notability, Just listed hundreds of companies in China)
 * ctxz2323: Again, the citation was for a historical fact, i.e., to support the sentence "In 2009, Hunan Coal Group, China Telecom, and Datang Telecom Group jointly established Hunan Black Gold Times (湖南黑金时代).". And that is a provincial government webite, a very high one.
 * 3: https://clb.org.hk/en/content/hunan-coalminers-strike-over-privatization-plans (Just Passing mention to Hunan Coal Group and the article is only about the "Strike" of the workers of the company, not about the company.
 * ctxz2323: Contributed by another editor, but I don't think it is useless.
 * 4: https://caijing.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202107/20/WS60f66c85a3101e7ce975a86d.html (The article is talking about the history of coal in Hunan, no coverage of the Hunan Coal Group at all. Also, At the end, the article mentions:"(Author Liao Jianxiang is Secretary and Chairman of the Party Committee of Hunan Coal Group Co., Ltd.")
 * ctxz2323: The history of coal in Hunan is relevant to the Hunan Coal Group, as shown by its title "湘煤集团：汲取红色动能 建设百年湘煤" (Google translate: "Xiang Coal Group: absorb red kinetic energy and build a century-old Hunan Coal Group".). And the source China Daily is maybe the largest English newspaper in China.
 * 5: https://www.gov.cn/xinwen/2018-05/22/content_5292722.htm (Government site, Even I skip that part, the article does not give in-depth coverage of the subject, it talk about the Jailed of Chairman of Hunan Coal Industry) Grab Up  -  Talk  12:10, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * ctxz2323: From Xinhua News Agency? Its news is widely used even internationally.
 * On the whole, I agree that the wiki article is far from perfect, but not so bad as should be deleted. Ctxz2323 (talk) 08:21, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Ctxz2323: Your breakdown does not provide any logic to pass WP:SIGCOV or WP:GNG. Passing mentions from government sites (primary sources) can’t establish notability. Grab Up  -  Talk  08:42, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * These sources are just trival mentions as per WP:ORGTRIV. Grab Up  -  Talk  08:57, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The ping didn't work, just so you know. I am assuming good faith that the quotes Cunard provided are real, not fake. The sources generally look like reliable WP:NEWSORGs. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 14:27, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * So, no proof or links; your vote is based on assumption. Thanks for your reply, but this does not convince me that these sources are reliable secondary sources. Grab Up  -  Talk  14:31, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your reminding (though sounds a bit too tough).
 * I have just added 2 English sources accessible on the Net. Ctxz2323 (talk) 23:32, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Ctxz2323: The first source is from Bloomberg, not a news coverage. Just a small page with intro of the company, not an in-depth coverage at all. The second source is from Wood Mac, an Analytic company, the article does not provide in-depth coverage just a summary and because it is an analytics, is fails under WP:ORGTRIV which says “standard notices, brief announcements, and routine coverage, such as:
 * of quarterly or annual financial results and earning forecasts,” Grab Up  -  Talk  03:18, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep Sources 1 and 5 seem to be WP:NCORP qualifying from a glance, and thats enough to make the company pass the guideline. WP:OFFLINE sources are allowed to be used to meet notability guidelines, and if someone has reason to believe someone is making up sources they are happy to go to WP:ANI with evidence to discuss the matter further. Jumpytoo Talk 05:31, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Jumpytoo: The first source is from Bloomberg; it's not a news article or anything similar, just a company page with one paragraph:
 * Hunan Coal Group Co. Ltd. mines, processes, and distributes coal products. The Company produces anthracite coals, coking coals, lean coals, general bituminous coals, and other products.
 * Just this nothing else,
 * The second source is from CLB. The article is about the strike of the workers but does not provide in-depth coverage of the company. The article mentions:
 * Several thousand workers at the Hunan Coal Industry Group have entered the tenth day of a strike in a protest over the company’s proposed privatization and stock exchange listing plans.
 * The strike began on 22 August when managers at the group’s Jinzhushan mine in central Hunan tried to force miners starting their shift to sign lay-off compensation agreements that took no account of how long they had worked at the mine. Those who refused to sign the agreement were not allowed to work.
 * In these two paragraphs, the first mentions Hunan Coal Industry Group, and the second reports that they are forcing workers to work. How do these meet WP:NCORP? This is not significant or in-depth coverage as per WP:SIGCOV. Grab Up  -  Talk  09:00, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Regarding offline sources, there is a section named “Challenging offline sources” that you can read. It allows me to challenge offline sources, and so I am challenging these offline sources. Grab Up  -  Talk  09:04, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * To clarify, I mean Cunard's sourcing list, not whatever sourcing is in the article. The sources I mention specifically contain negative coverage which generally have the NCORP required intellectual independence. Per the link you provided on challenging online sources, They might even be able to provide you a scan or an excerpt from that source, which Cunard already did in their vote. And as per WP:OSO, If an editor seeking deletion believes the creator placed fictitious references in the article to make a hoax seem legitimate, the burden of proof is on the one seeking deletion. Jumpytoo Talk 09:21, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Just google "Hunan Coal Group" on the net, and you will see quite a bit coverage hard to ignore. Ctxz2323 (talk) 01:26, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Ctxz2323: I have already provided an analysis of the cited sources. If you would like, you can share your ‘Hard to Ignore’ sources, and I will gladly analyze them for you. Grab Up  -  Talk  03:53, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Keep: Cunard has already conducted a thorough search of sources. China News Service, Changsha Evening News, and Shanghai Securities Journal are well-established media, and I believe Cunard's searches in good faith. I am not sure what the nominator is trying to nitpick here. It is reasonable to challenge the authenticity of the sources, but that should be done by providing evidence of any flaws or uncertainties, not just bludgeoning without any basis. But since there are still potential doubts about the sources listed in this discussion, I have done some additional searches for Chinese sources online, coming up with articles from Xinhua News Agency, China Daily, Shanghai Securities Journal, Red Net, China News Service, Sohu, and People's Daily. All of these are verifiable online sources with SIGCOV. I believe these newly located sources should help settle the disputes from the previous discussion. Keep per NCORP. — Prince of Erebor （ The Book of Mazarbul ）  18:50, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Prince of Erebor: *Keep: Thanks for coming up with these sources. I am withdrawing the nomination, as I am convinced by the sources you provided. Grab Up  -  Talk  10:37, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Glad that my searches helped settle your doubts. And I genuinely appreciate you being responsible to review the newfound sources and follow up on the nomination once consensus can be made! — Prince of Erebor （ The Book of Mazarbul ）  11:17, 6 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep More than enough to satisfy WP:GNG. Don't have anything else to add than whats written above. MaskedSinger (talk) 08:22, 6 June 2024 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.