Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/IGI Global (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. I think there is a very narrow consensus to delete here. The salient argument to keep is from Stuartyeates who points out blog posts about the subject by noted academics like Peter Murray-Rust and Ian Bogost, but the purpose of their posts is to critique IGI Global's disreputable practices. While I think an argument can be made that these gentlemen represent reliable sources, I don't think their posts qualify as in-depth coverage as demanded by the WP:GNG. I'm not personally going to salt the article because I think there could be a good, well-sourced article that actually reflects the company's perception within academia as a "vampire press" and not the bland bit of first-party-sourced PR fluff being considered in this discussion.  A  Train talk 17:39, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

IGI Global
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

The sources establish that the company exists, but no more than that. Beall considers the company to be worthless and its publications borderline predatory, but even that is hard to source as it's not open access so not included in his list of predatory journals. The "sources" are directories and a press release from IGI, there are no independent sources about the company. Evidence of WP:ITEXISTS does not meet WP:GNG. Guy (Help!) 06:16, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * delete wow this is a great example of WP:NOTWEBHOST.   But I am confused - there was a prior AfD in 2012 that ended with no consensus, but the current article was created yesterday.   Was this PRODed or speedied or something?  Jytdog (talk) 07:12, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * It was speedied under WP:A7 last week. Someone (Stuartyeates, I believe) asked at ANI why the history of both the article and its talk page disappeared and an admin answered.  Turns out it was deleted and subsequently recreated. -- Gestrid (talk) 12:09, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * ah, thanks! permalink to that ANI section is here, for the record. Jytdog (talk) 18:35, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep There is coverage, see https://copy-shake-paste.blogspot.co.nz/2007/12/write-only-publications.html http://bogost.com/writing/blog/writeonly_publication/ https://blogs.ch.cam.ac.uk/pmr/2011/07/16/what%E2%80%99s-wrong-with-scholarly-publishing-new-journal-spam-and-%E2%80%9Copen-access%E2%80%9D/ etc. What we need is a consensus that these critical blog posts constitute reliable sources. Since these are academics writing about things they've discovered in the course of their professional work and in the absence of independent response, I'd say they are. (Note that this is a change in my position from the previous AfD) Stuartyeates (talk) 07:57, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * That is an interestingly WP:PARITY like argument. Hm. User:Randykitty, thoughts on this Afd and the above sources? Jytdog (talk) 08:02, 29 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Ammendment: in good faith I should also point out https://scholarlyoa.com/2012/12/06/bealls-list-of-predatory-publishers-2013/ (which isn't in depth but may be authoritative in this field) and http://fakeconference.blogspot.co.nz/2014/02/googling-fake-conferences-we-found-2.html (which is in depth, doesn't not appear to be reliable). Stuartyeates (talk) 08:09, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete and Salt No notability? No thanks. TomStar81 (Talk) 08:13, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete - Looks like it fails WP:GNG. The sources above might be reliable sources for some things, but I don't think they constitute notability. &mdash;  Rhododendrites talk  \\ 12:39, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * They're also mostly WP:BLOGS, which, in most cases, shouldn't be used to establish notability. -- Gestrid (talk) 12:45, 29 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete Fails WP:COMPANY in particular WP:ORGSIG. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 15:14, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete per Tom and Gestrid.74.70.146.1 (talk) 15:23, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete per my point above. I know you know my view of this, but I wanted to make a formal vote. -- Gestrid (talk) 19:05, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep — there are 116,000 hits under Google Scholar for publications published by or referencing IGI Global, many with high citation counts. I believe it would be impossible to fake to this level without notability. I know of worthwhile papers published by IGI Global (or Idea Group Publishing) from personal experience too. I note as well that Wikipedia itself references quite a few publications published in IGI Global. The samples I have viewed look worthwhile. — Jonathan Bowen (talk) 20:00, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * A publisher does categorically not inherit notability from works they publish. As much as I !voted keep above, if we have to rely on arguments such as these, we have to delete. Stuartyeates (talk) 08:45, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
 * What else is a publisher notable for if not their published works? Is not an author not notable for their published works? Etc. I could not see anything under WP:INHERITED against this. — Jonathan Bowen (talk) 12:44, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
 * By default, we generally expect a subject to be notable when it's received significant coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject. That's coverage of the subject in particular, not of notable works tied to it. For some subjects we have subject-specific notability criteria which grant notability under certain scenarios -- like a musical group with two independently notable musicians, or winning an Academy Award, or holding a named/endowed professorship at a university. The idea isn't to short circuit the need for sources, but to say that these conditions make it so there will be sources. Sometimes that means we get permastubs or articles sourced almost entirely to coverage of its component subjects, but meh. Anyway, we don't have that sort of thing for publishers, as far as I know. Most relevant is WP:ORG. There was a proposal for Notability (publishing) but it failed pretty hard. &mdash;  Rhododendrites talk  \\ 13:00, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
 * From WP:ORGSIG: "When evaluating the notability of organizations or products, please consider whether they have had any significant or demonstrable effects on culture, society, entertainment, athletics, economies, history, literature, science, or education." I would argue that the above demonstrates this in science, perhaps education too. — Jonathan Bowen (talk) 23:11, 30 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment: I note also that WorldCat lists over 100,000 publications related to IGI Global, hardly an insignificant number. The company has been in existence since 1988, hardly an insignificant time (nearly thirty years). Some Wikipedia editors may not approve of the publisher, but that is a different matter. — Jonathan Bowen (talk) 10:30, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
 * WorldCat stats would only be relevant if libraries did selection based largely on publisher, which seems unlikely; much more likely these are compilations of academic works which are then purchased by the libraries of the universities at which the academic authors work. Stuartyeates (talk) 22:06, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Note that IGI Global book titles are indexed in the ACM Digital Library (e.g., see here), the DBLP Computer Science Bibliography, the Education Resources Information Center (ERIC), and the Thomson Reuters Book Citation Index. IGI Global journals are listed by Cabell's Directories, Compendex, Inspec, PsycINFO, Scopus, and Thomson Reuters. All are reputable indexes. — Jonathan Bowen (talk) 17:49, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Pennsylvania-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 10:59, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 10:59, 2 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment: I edited books with them in the past. My perception of their standing is that they are an OK publisher, but definitely not a premium one. They push really hard to get authors/editors, and to sell books to libraries, but they are not predatory like some ("pay-per-print", etc.). They rely on the editors' own ability to provide goood peer review (risky), and I'm pretty sure they accept a large range of proposals, as long as they think they'll be able to sell to libraries (they do keep quality allowing them to do that though, and their books are bought by good universities, too). From my experience, I'd put them on par with Peter Lang, but definitely a notch lower than Ashgate Publishing or Edward Elgar Publishing, to say nothing of the premium league as MIT Press or Stanford University Press. All in all, my view is that information of such caliber publishers is useful, as long as they are cited and mentioned in rankings/catalogues (per Jonathan's remarks), but the perception of minimal threshold of notability naturally varies. However, it would be even more useful to have rigid, concrete criteria for notability for academic presses. Pundit | utter  12:56, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with this assessment. In my view, publishers listed by reputable indexes such as the ACM Digital Library (the ACM is the leading computer science professional body internationally), Scopus, etc., are notable enough to be included on Wikipedia. These can be considered under the following from WP:ORGIND in my view: "Sources used to support a claim of notability include independent, reliable publications in all forms, such as [...] websites". An explicit list of acceptable indexes for academic publishers would be useful. — Jonathan Bowen (talk) 18:51, 3 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete. Whether a company/publisher is good or bad is actually immaterial to this discussion. What is needed is in-depth sources about the publisher. None of the sources currently in the article is anything more than a directory entry (ignoring press releases and links to IGI Global's own website). I am somewhat receptive to Stuartyeates' arguments, but in the end I don't think that those blog posts should be all that we use to base notability upon. --Randykitty (talk) 08:43, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * In general, we need to avoid using WP:BLOGS as sources, anyway, especially to establish something as important as notability (which, as all or most of us know, is the general answer to whether or not we should write an article on the subject). -- Gestrid (talk) 09:06, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree. If we have an article, those blogs from respected academics could be used to source content, but as I said, I'm hesitant to base notability on them. --Randykitty (talk) 10:35, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * For academic publishers, inclusion in respected indexes as in this case is a good indication of notability. This is an example of WP:COMMONSENSE. — Jonathan Bowen (talk) 10:03, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * For academic journals we take inclusion in respected databases only as a sign of notability if said databases are selective. So inclusion in DOAJ or Google Scholar does not contribute to notability, even though those are respected. In the present case, none of the databases concerned are selective but instead try to be comprehensive, so I don't think that inclusion in them contributes any notability, it just confirms that the company exists. --Randykitty (talk) 10:35, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * ACM Digital Library and DBLP are selective in computer science, only including reputable entries. Note that IGI Global has multiple agreements with academic organizations around the world, with independent articles covering this. I have added a few non-exhaustive referenced examples. — Jonathan Bowen (talk) 11:28, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * That's the same kind of "selectivity" that DOAJ and GScholar have. They both still strive for comprehensiveness, the former in indexing OA journals (but excluding those that are shown to be predatory, the latter including any periodical, provided that it is an academic journal. Neither is selective in the sense that they only include the best journals in their respective fields of interest (like, say Scopus or the ATLA Religion Database). --Randykitty (talk) 11:41, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * IGI Global publications are listed by Scopus and other indexes too. — Jonathan Bowen (talk) 13:33, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I think you're missing the rather fundamental point that inclusion only indicates that something is likely to be notable. Notability on Wikipedia is established by non-trivial coverage in reliable independent sources. Not directories. Not indexes. Guy (Help!) 20:39, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Are not the references by Council of Australian University Librarians, EBSCO, Naseej, SHERPA (University of Nottingham), etc., as included in the article, WP:RELIABLE? — Jonathan Bowen (talk) 21:18, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

All of those are non-selective directory-style databases. The phonebook is reliable. Being listed in it is routine and does not confer notability. --Randykitty (talk) 21:25, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I disagree. The Naseej references is a news item. The Typefi reference is a case study. Etc. Even the directories are selective of reputable publishers. Taken together, I believe these multiple sources demonstrate WP:Notability. — Jonathan Bowen (talk) 22:09, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The Typefi thing is a promotional piece by the company producing Typefi. The Nasee piece is a promotional press release. The "sources" used in this article are starting to near G11 territory: one of them is even a (completely inappropriate) promotional slide presentation of the company and its products! --Randykitty (talk) 06:43, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
 * But for and by other companies rather than IGI Global. — Jonathan Bowen (talk) 08:48, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The Naseej and  Typefi references http://naseej.com/News/Saudi-Digital-Library-and-IGI-Global?feed=news and https://www.typefi.com/solutions/case-studies/igi-global/ are from people in a commercial relationship with the vendor. There is no way they can be used to meet the WP:GNG. Stuartyeates (talk) 09:38, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
 * How about this: — Jonathan Bowen (talk) 00:50, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
 * "About the Author / Shalin Hai-Jew works as an instructional designer at Kansas State University. She has worked with IGI-Global on several publishing projects." So not independent. Stuartyeates (talk) 01:20, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
 * How can you do a serious study of an organization without any contact with them? I think you are taking things to extremes. Kansas State University is independent of IGI Global. — Jonathan Bowen (talk) 09:18, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
 * See also: — Jonathan Bowen (talk) 21:09, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Seen. Interview with IGI staffer plus database-style listing of facts about the company, it's people and it's product. No evidence that any information on in that was supplied by anyone but IGI, so not independent. Stuartyeates (talk) 23:24, 6 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete (and salt since this has been repeatedly re-created). I see no significant, in-depth, third-party coverage from reliable sources. Neutralitytalk 19:00, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
 * For the record, I am unhappy that my response to this entry was moved without my consent – see history. This is like rewriting history 1984-style, but fortunately Wikipedia keeps its history. — Jonathan Bowen (talk) 08:56, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment — In summary, while no one reference or academic index listing constitutes "notability", I believe that as a collection of evidence not included in the previous IGI Global entry they do, even with deletions by an editor. I would ask that this comment not be moved or changed by another editor. — Jonathan Bowen (talk) 09:06, 7 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Leaning keep This seems like a borderline case to me. IGI Global published 180 journals, and a few of them (I don't know the exact proportion but see e.g. and ) have impact factors, which makes those journals notable. Now WP:INHERIT applies to some extent, but here I don't see how the encyclopedia is improved by making IGI Global turn red, so I'm willing to WP:IAR a little given what's written in the article is good, well supported, and the question "Who is IGI Global?" is I feel something Wikipedia needs to be able to answer. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 14:50, 9 September 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.