Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/ITC Bailey Sans

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Delete. Redwolf24 (talk) 02:29, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

ITC Bailey Sans
NN Erwin Walsh


 * Delete no evidence that this is anything more than just another font. Wile E. Heresiarch 16:45, 20 August 2005 (UTC)


 * This article should be merged, or included in an "authors" section within the existing International Typeface Corporation page. While indeed there are many fonts, this particular foundry is a leader in publishing quality fonts. Is there relevance in documenting, to help understand nuances in the ongoing development of this artform, how it was influenced, and influences culture, no matter how small?
 * Comment. Previous comment is from 70.244.83.101 which created the article. The same anon IP also made changes to International Typeface Corporation which I have marked up as copyvio. --GraemeL (talk) 17:49, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Adobe has licensing agreements with ITC to market ITC fonts. The language you post as a possible copyvio. originates as ITC boilerplate language. http://www.itcfonts.com/about/default.asp?nCo=AFMT I truly appreciate the diligence to police Wikipedia to ensure its quality whatever the outcome of this interesting exercize. Please excuse the disorienting lack of protocols I'm likely guilty of.
 * Not a problem. As to the consequenses of you posting the material that you hold copyright on, you should probably read Contributing_FAQ. It might be better for you to write an entry from scratch rather than using your existing copy. You can sign your posts here by including ~ at the end of your comments. --GraemeL (talk) 18:55, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Upon investigation into how information is categorized in Wikipedia I'm sure what I've posted as an article is actually a "stub". I do however believe that this info is of relevance contextual to International Typeface Corporation, in a subtext category (currently there is nothing there). Without boring readers too much I hope, and briefly, International Typeface Corporation is an institution that should be expounded on now before chance that they go out of business, and through consequence our culture potentially losing a vast database of contextual history in development of typographic forms and excellence, where these font designs came from and ultimately where the design influences came from and how they've been influenced by culture. Fonts that we see every day and take for granted, the fact that they're an artform as well as a facilitator of commerce is important. Anthropologists and typophiles in ages to come will research this topic, and they will have to research International Typeface Corporation if they're going to want to get to the heart of this subject. I'm not sure where to put this tiny little piece of history of this company. I also have letters that deal with the negotiations and design concerns and how they were resolved that would add further to this but there's no structure on their page to begin this process of elaboration. Kevinb3 01:58, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Developed over a period of three years ITC Bailey Sans was the first typeface family designed by Kevin Bailey. The genesis for the design came in the early 1990’s when he was looking for a subtle humanistic block serif face for a design project but failed to unearth one. Perceiving a need for a design that reflected these attributes Bailey began work on a block serif face. The exploratory design process eventually lead down diverging paths. Finding that the framework of the new design worked well as a unique humanistic sans serif, and because a sans serif generally has more utilitarian use, this direction was pursued. The design expanded to a complete family of complementary weights and styles including a true italics variant. The period during this fonts development included a relatively few number of true italics to select from the given cadre of sans serifs; many variants that were labeled as italics were technically obliques or slants. Other features of the design include open counters on the bold weights which increased their legibility.

ITC Bailey Sans was licensed and published by ITC (International Typeface Corporation) in 1996. The Design includes four weights: book, book italic, bold and bold italic. In addition a companion serif display face ITC Bailey Quad Bold was published. ITC Bailey Quad Bold reflects the early development and original inspiration for the sans serif family variants. Three other block serif variants: book, book italic, and bold italic were submitted but not published by ITC at the time. ITC Bailey Sans was recognized by the Type Directors Club of New York in a 2000 judging of fonts developed during the 1990's as representing a distinct and unique design from this prolific period of type design.


 * Delete All that said, still nn. Dottore So 05:43, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Really obscure minutiae. --Agamemnon2 11:30, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I wonder how many people that voted here understand enough about typography to cast an informative judgement on this subject, what is valuable and what is not. I dare say most here have never heard of ITC, not a faux pas by any means, but this plays a role in the culture that exists today. Something more than broadstrokes need to be included. Although most here I'm sure have heard of IBM, look up their site here, you can drill down a mile to find arcane facts. I would propose to all the academics and elitists to keep an open mind to allow Wikipedia to flourish so that it has value to all interests and be careful to judge things outside your knowledge too frivolously.

The beauty of this medium is the ability to drill down deep in a subject, far deeper then you would be able to afford in print. There will continue to be books on typography, but they can be more informative in the future with a site such as this that is agnostic to proprietary concerns, such as if a company goes out of business and some history is lost.

The first step here would be to allow some depth to develop around ITC where stubs of relevance can be attached and other typographic contributors can add relevant information. Then typographic academics themselves can police what is worthy or not on this subject and make the furure edits. Let this medium breath. The font you're now reading has a good chance of being an ITC font. When you pick a font to produce a paper you pick one that conveys a certain mood you want to express, and much of this is culturally driven. The medium's a tool. How many millions have been spent trying to figure out undocumented arcane facts from the past.

I read the boilerplate on Wikipedia again to make sure I didn't miss something, I don't think so. I agree a line needs to be drawn about what is accepted. I would suggest if the information has been allowed to be published through due diligence by an educated and distinguished group of authority on the subject, and thus becomes part of the public domain then it's worthy. I would draw the line on i.e. freeware fonts. Please don't police what you don't understand, and appreciate and allow facts you find uninteresting to flourish if the right pedigree exists.Kevinb3 14:44, 21 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, well all that said as well, still nn. Delete Dottore So 15:41, 21 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Weak Delete Its not that a typeface can't be notable enough to warrant inclusion in Wikipedia, but absolutely nothing that has been presented so far meets that test of notability.  It's not a common typeface.  It hasn't as far as I'm aware been used as part of notable production.  There's nothing in the article as is that it has had a significant influence on anything of note whatsoever.  Probably would eould be worth an entry in an article about him if he can be shown to be notable enough.  (The existing article at Kevin Bailey should probably be moved to Kevin Bailey (typographer) as even if Mr. Bailey is noteworthy enough, the member of the Texas House of Representatives by the same name is certainly more noteworthy. Caerwine 19:36, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Lastly, I realized that this was not an "article" but a "stub" early on. A stub, whether it's "notable enough" or not would only be a question if in consequence the article it's attached to is relevant, correct? Bailey Sans is indeed a very small part of the legacy of International Typeface Corporation. Maybe not today, but someday, if this online encyclopedia concept has any legs (which it should), there will be much more elaboration on the art, craft and influence of typography on culture and the important foundries that published and created fonts, if this is the case then ITC will at some date have more then a single sentence declaring its existence. An article about the foundry would necessarily elaborate and expound on its contributions to the typographic field. If this holds true then all of the contributions of ITC will be touched on through the use of stubs. This is why early on in this thread I was requesting more thought, that this important foundry deserves an in depth article with relevant stubs for future typophiles and other academics of typography to peruse. The idea of a particular font being notable or not is misguided thinking, I would however as stated before, draw the line here with shareware designs because it's an open can of worms. As often is the case fonts move in and out of favor as time rolls on. As designs reflect a cultures tastes and expectations they're resurrected or serve as the framework and basis for new concepts in type. It's relevant to understand the pedigree if one ultimately wishes to understand the history. I can name notable uses of ITC Bailey Sans, I would think that would be a bit over the top. Finally, an online encyclopedic reference has an important advantage over print, one isn't confined to edit to fit a given number of pages (a condensed font only helps so much!). The beauty of this medium is there should be room for arcane but relevant information where a scholar, various academics and professionals etc., can drill down as deep as they need to find a necessary reference. Anything ITC is relevant on the subject of fonts and typography to those that study it, as boring and obscure as it might be to those outside related disciplines.Kevinb3 21:06, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment Kevin's articulate defense is stirring, but not notable is not notable. I am not sure that the Kevin Bailey entry is notable either. Dottore So
 * Comment While electrons don't take up as much space, they do take space and server space is not free. (Otherwise why the need for the current fund drive?) While this font familiy is probably notable enough for a encyclopædia of typography that is not what Wikipedia is.  It's a general encylcopedia and so far all that has been shown is that it probably deserves mention in an expanded article on ITC.  Wikipedia could also use an article on the Type Directors Club. Perhaps once there is some context, there might be enough to indicate that this typeface family deserves a separate article, but based on what I can find by googling on "ITC Bailey Sans" I don't think so. 165.247.168.56 20:58, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.