Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ibrahima Dramé


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:23, 9 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I've moved this to Draft:Ibrahima_Dramé per User_talk:RoySmith -- RoySmith (talk) 17:17, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Ibrahima Dramé

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Has not played first-team football, so fails WP:NFOOTBALL and WP:GNG JMHamo (talk) 03:52, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. JMHamo (talk) 03:53, 26 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete - He has not played in a fully pro league or received significant coverage, meaning the article fails WP:NSPORT and WP:GNG. Sir Sputnik (talk) 06:35, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete - per nom, link in article to club site indicates he has never played first team football. Fenix down (talk) 12:21, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete - fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL. GiantSnowman 12:52, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:10, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Norway-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:10, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:10, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:11, 26 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep - per WP:IGNOREALLRULES. This article is created by a new editor along with two other biographies related to the same club, and two days after creation they are all proposed for deletion. These three players will all be notable when the Norwegian football season starts in a month - but the new editor will probably have quitted editing by then if s/he sees their articles being deleted. Deleting this article now (and recreating them in a month) will not improve Wikipedia, but having another editor who edits articles about Norwegian football certainly will. Mentoz (talk) 21:39, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * , surely you know better than to presume future notability? No indication at all these players will be notable any time soon. GiantSnowman 19:52, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * - It might be that I presume future notability, but aren't you guys doing the opposite - presuming that he wont play any matches at all? You don't need a crystal ball to say that a player that plays regularly in a club's pre-seasons friendlies will play when the real season starts. The indication that this player (and his teammates created by the same user) soon will be notable is here, the list of Brann's competetive matches. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, so I don't get why we are taking this bureaucratic approach to new articles: Nominate for deletion days after creation, and recreate when they play a match (and we all know that playing one match is not enough to merit a stand-alone article unless the general notability guideline is met). Not exactly a happy welcome for Mentoz (talk) 16:58, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Agree with GS, although when viewed in isolation a decision to delete when there is a possibility of recreation in a few weeks seems a little pointless however, you must look at things in the wider picture. By rigourously employing WP:CRYSTAL we are able to head off any and all arguments which essentially run along the lines of "this player is not notable now by any guideline, but let's keep the article for a while to see if he continues to be non-notable", an argument that fundamentally makes no sense. Fenix down (talk) 08:52, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I see your point, but that's not what I want - I just want us to not bite the newcomers. If we look at the wider picture ( the other wider picture ): Wikipedia is in decline, and we should welcome new editors warmly instead of deleting their work when their work meets the cut-off for inclusion in Wikipedia in just a few weeks. There is a big difference here, if one of the participants in this discussion had created this article I would've trouted you and voted to delete the article. But Wikipedia needs new contributors, and us veteran editors shouldn't scare them off just because they haven't read WP:NFOOTY or WP:FPL and has created an article a couple of weeks early. After seeing dozens of articles being deleted and then recreated I believe we should stop deleting new articles where there is a decent chance they might become notable within the next month. It doesn't harm Wikipedia to keep an article about a non-notable footballers a couple of weeks, but I have a feeling we could harm future contributions to Wikipedia if we delete it if the new contributors quit editing Wikipedia. Mentoz (talk) 16:58, 28 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment. Okay what am I missing here.  Plays and has started for SK_Brann, a fully-professional team in a fully professional league listed at WP:FPL, as I noted when I removed the PROD. Clearly one of my assumptions is wrong with four people calling for deletion ... so what am I missing? Nfitz (talk) 18:55, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Has not played for Brann, so fails WP:NFOOTBALL JMHamo (talk) 19:00, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * He has ... I assume your point is that they don't count, being only pre-season friendlies.


 * Keep - per Mentoz86. Very wise comments.  And little point deleting the page just before the season begins, given he's been playing extensively in pre-season friendlies. Nfitz (talk) 21:34, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Playing in pre-season friendlies does not mean you will be playing in the regular season. Many friendlies against lower ranking teams involve cubs putting out lesser players. Fenix down (talk) 08:52, 28 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete - fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL. Wikipedia does not operate on the process of "this player will be notable when the season starts".  As we've said hundreds of times now, that claim is a violation of WP:CRYSTAL.   We don't know if they will be notable in the future.  What if they suffer a long term injury during pre-season? – Michael (talk) 01:34, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * As has been noted previously, WP:CRYSTAL doesn't require a guarantee that the player will play. Only that it's almost certain that the player will play. An long term injury that makes them never play is unlikely.  And if such a thing actually happens, and they do retire (such as the sad case of Zachary Herold) then the article can simply be PRODed or deleted. We spend an inordinate amount of time near the beginning of the season deleting players who are almost certain to have articles recreated later.  I've been looking at the ones we looked at in 2012. Every player I found I argued against deleting because they played on a fully professional team, but hadn't started has been recreated.  And most have been done so without merging in the previous edit history. We're wasting our time deleting these articles. Nfitz (talk) 04:57, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * "Individual scheduled or expected future events should be included only if the event is notable and almost certain to take place. Dates are not definite until the event actually takes place. If preparation for the event is not already in progress, speculation about it must be well documented." So yeah it pretty much requires a guarantee that a player will play. Also, wasting time deleting articles is not a valid argument.  If they don't meet the notability guidelines, they're gonna be nominated for deletion.  I understand your argument about pages being created despite the season not starting.  WP:GNG is complicated.  And this might go down as WP:NPOV, but almost every page I've seen fail WP:NFOOTBALL have been deleted.  And looking for significant coverage for players that don't/didn't meet NFOOTBALL is not that simple.  I mean, I've wanted an article for Patrick Mullins created since he won the first of his two Hermann Trophy awards in 2012.  You understand where I'm going here? – Michael (talk) 19:46, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Still, take a look at the players signed for a fully-pro league we were arguing about in 2012 (or earlier). They all got deleted, and most have since been recreated.  Many (if not most) without properly restoring the pre-deletion(s) edit history, even years later. Why do we do this to ourselves? I'm not sure what the reference is about Patrick Mullins (soccer) - we've previously established in other AfD dicussions that Hermann Trophy winners were notable. See Articles for deletion/O'Brian White.  You don't win the Hermann trophy once without significant media coverage (let alone twice!) Nfitz (talk) 21:23, 2 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete - fails WP:NFOOTBALL. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, and it is no garantee the player ever will play a match in a fully professional league. Grrahnbahr (talk) 00:54, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Speedy incubate to draftspace Everyone seems to agree that the essential criteria may or may not happen in four weeks.  Since the criteria may not happen, the article should not be in mainspace.  Since the criteria may happen, there is no benefit to having the article locked up in deletespace.  Unscintillating (talk) 13:15, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.