Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ice Nine Kills (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. v/r - TP 23:23, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Ice Nine Kills
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log )

I took this to AFD over CSD because this version of the article seemed to be an improvement from previous incarnations, but still delete worthy. Though the band has since released an album through a notable label, the album didn't receive any coverage from reliable sources, and the label has since gone under. In fact, none of the sources present appear to meet WP:RS. I still don't see this band meeting WP:MUSICBIO or WP:GNG guidelines. Fezmar9 (talk) 16:55, 5 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I think the fact that they are currently listed as a Ferret Music Artist, a label which did not go under, just switched hands to Warner Music, have performed multiple years on the Vans Warped Tour, and are currently listed as the #1 downloaded signed metal band on Purevolume.com above notable metal bands such as As I Lay Dying and Breaking Benjamin, makes them worthy of inclusion. (http://www.purevolume.com/top_downloads/?genre=Metal&signed_status=signed) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.36.67 (talk) 18:50, 5 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I would also like to note that if you examine a couple youtube videos i've found of the band, it is clear that they have an impressive fan base which reaches far beyond their Boston hometown. The following linka are videos of the band performing on Warped Tour in Florida as well as Chicago, with hundreds of kids singing along to the bands songs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR3ClDoHqqo as well as http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z09qeZYhOLw — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.36.67 (talk) 19:49, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The heads of Ferret Music left and started Good Fight Entertainment, and Warner Bros. currently holds the rights to all Ferret artists, but Warner isn't really doing anything with Ferret bands so it's widely considered a defunct label. Warner only put out like three albums last year with Ferret stamped on it. The Ferret website had not been updated since May 2009 last time I saw (which was about a month ago), and now it's completely offline. The same thing happened with Trustkill Records. A few YouTube videos and a Purevolume ranking do not demonstrate notability. Please address the nomination directly and provide published sources that demonstrate how Ice Nine Kills meets the guidelines at both WP:MUSICBIO or WP:GNG. Thank you. Fezmar9 (talk) 20:11, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The band was featured on page 42 of Revolver Magazine's Hottest Chicks in Hard Rock issue this past fall. This particular issue which featured Taylor Momsen on the cover received world wide attention: http://www.tmz.com/2010/10/14/taylor-momsen-parents-television-council-revolver-gossip-girl/ . Revolver magazine is a widely circulated magazine that you can find in most books stores in the country and constantly contains interviews with the biggest rock stars of all time like Ozzy Osbourne. The band's song "we ate gilbert's grapes" has been featured in the Lionsgate skateboard comedy dishdogz as the opening and closing credits. This movie starred famous skateboarders Ryan Sheckler and Tony Alva as well as tv/film stars Luke Perry and Haylie Duff. This movie has been available at Blockbuster video stores across the country and is currently on Netflix and On-Demand. The band has performed multiple dates on the world famous Warped Tour alongside such notable bands as Sum 41, A Day To Remember, and Punk Legends Bad Religion. The bands influence has stretched all over the world and has even influenced bands in far off places like Indonesia as evident by this Indonesian band covering their music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmLAin4c9s0. The band did so well on their one week stretch of Warped Tour 2009 that they were invited back for 2 weeks in 2010. The Warped Tour official blog Reporter even noted that they were one of the biggest drawing bands she had seen all summer on that stage: http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=106236213177 . If the band still doesn't fit into the exact criteria needed for inclusion, i think wikipedia should seriously consider revising the prerequisites for inclusion or make exceptions in some cases where it is necessary. I have personally seen bands included on this site, who may infact fit the exact criteria ie. be on a major label, but are far less known than this particular band. This band does have a large following and are worthy of inclusion. Please strongly consider this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.36.67 (talk) 21:15, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I have this issue of Revolver. On page 42 there is a two sentence "article" on the band that more or less says what genre they are, and that their name is derived from Cat's Cradle. This would fall into the category of trivial coverage. It's also irrelevant to this discussion who is on the cover of the issue. The claims of having a song in a movie and having their songs covered by other bands would only be notable if these events themselves recieved significant coverage—which they have not. The criteria for inclusion is very simply seeking at least a few published articles about the subject that also "address the subject directly in detail". I don't think that's asking for very much. Fezmar9 (talk) 21:56, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Whether or not the feature on them was extensive in Revolver, their band name, photograph, and a recommendation from the one of the most credible rock magazines in the U.S. was included. It is not irrelevant for me to include that TMZ write up (the issue was also featured on E! TV) because it proves that that particular issue that they were in received even more attention than the average issue. The Magazine liked them so much that they were invited to attend and walk the "black carpet" of the 2010 Revolver Golden Gods awards along with Ozzy, Rob Zombie, The Devil Wears Prada, and As I lay Dying. Check out the interview the singer did on the black carpet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfd6Ocv7XOI To discredit the bands involvement in a movie made by the powerhouse studio Lionsgate is ridiculous. Along with a full U.S. tour with the popular Nu Metal band Taproot, The band's guitarist JD was invited to guest appear with them at several of their live shows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9_UkLe1m_Q I would also like to point out that the bands A Loss For Words and Therefore I Am, from the same area, are included on Wikipedia. I find this band to be just as notable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.36.67 (talk) 22:30, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The notability guideline is only looking for published sources with a lot of detail so one could presumably write a verifiable and in-depth article on the subject. One could not write an in-depth article based on the two sentences in Revolver, thus it is completely trivial. The notability guideline doesn't care who was on the cover or how much the publication loves the band, only how much information is available. I am not discrediting anything, I am only seeking verification through the proper means. Googling "Ice Nine Kills" "dishdogz" only turns up 25 results, none of which are published articles. If this were truly a notable event, someone would have written something about it. Fezmar9 (talk) 23:18, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * also, if dishdogz isn't a notable enough movie to be attached to, why does it have it's own wikipedia article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.36.67 (talk) 23:28, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I never said the movie wasn't notable, only Ice Nine Kills' contributions to the film weren't notable. Songs are used in films all the time. What makes this particular occurrence so special? Fezmar9 (talk) 23:49, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * They were used as the opening and closing credits, obviously marking the song as theme of the movie. Music plays a huge role in the way films are perceived. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.36.67 (talk) 00:01, 6 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Strong keep, band was deleted several times 2 years ago! Since then they've been signed to Ferret (which is owned by Warner Music Group; the third-largest music business in the world), and have been on The Taste of Chaos, 2009, 2010 and will be on this year's Warped Tour, had one of their songs on a film staring Luke Perry and have been in a nationalized music magazine. You would have to be kidding yourself to actually think this band is not notable to have an article on site with bands like Curl Up and Die in its roster which aren't even half as recognizable as INK. GunMetal Angel  22:48, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Just as I asked of the above IP, could you please respond to the nomination directly. Which part of WP:BAND does Ice Nine Kills pass? Where is the significant coverage that WP:GNG is looking for? Fezmar9 (talk) 23:18, 5 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Strong keep Wikipedia states that "trivial coverage" is defined as the following: "articles that simply report performance dates, release information or track listings, or the publications of contact and booking details in directories." The following is the direct quote from the Revolver piece on Ice Nine kills: "Manic sing-scream metalcore that should have fans of Bring Me The Horizon and Alesana singing, screaming, and moshing along." I'm sorry but that is not trivial coverage, that is the magazine comparing them to 2 very notable bands of the genre and recommending them to fans of those bands. I also found that the band was featured in Alternative Press Magazine issue #240 recommending them to fans of Senses Fail, Atryeu, and Story of the year. Alt press also took note that "Their DIY mentality has won them fans far from their New England home." Those 2 examples right there prove the band "Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable and are independent from the musician or ensemble itself." Also, INK "Has received non-trivial coverage in a reliable source of an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one sovereign country." Here is a link to the offical Warped Tour facebook where their moderator commented on Ice Nine Kills as having one of the largest draws at Warped Tour all summer for their particular stage: http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=106236213177 . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.36.67 (talk) 00:13, 6 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Here is the complete transcript of the Alternative Press Article on Ice Nine Kills taken from issue #240, again, this would not be considered trivial coverage: THE STORY SO FAR: Ironically pop punk forefathers inspired Ice Nine Kills to quit playing pop punk covers after forming. "The turning point for us was seeing Goldfinger," says vocalist Spencer Charnas. "That performance inspired us to start writing our own music." The result is a mix of arena punk and melodic screamo. It's not uncommon for us to listen to death metal one minute and The Phantom of The Opera the next. WHY YOU SHOULD KNOW THEM: Their DIY mentality has won them fans far from their New England home. Ice Nine Kills album The Burning is a consisten top 10 seller on Smartpunk and they witnessed 6,000 iTUNES downloads during a two month span at the beginning of this year. "We see kids at malls all across the country wearing our shirts and listening to us on their iPODS," says Charnas. "It's An amazing feeling." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.36.67 (talk) 01:53, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * (I wrote this last night before your second reply, but forgot to submit it) What you are quoting is only a brief list of examples that may pertain to music pages; it's not an exhaustive list. The example from WP:N gives a broader definition: "The 360-page book by Sobel and the 528-page book by Black on IBM are plainly non-trivial. The one sentence mention by Walker of the band Three Blind Mice in a biography of Bill Clinton is plainly trivial." A trivial source is one that only briefly mentions the subject without any depth. Two sentences in Revolver is plainly trivial. I am also familiar with the Alternative Press source you're referring to, though I don't have it in front of me. It's boarder-line trivial due to it's brevity, but it definitely has more information than the Revolver one. The facebook link also clearly demonstrates a trivial mention, and it's also from a biased first-party source. Of course Warped Tour is going to promote and say positive things about Warped Tour bands. This needed to be referenced by a third-party published source. Fezmar9 (talk) 15:02, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * What you have provided thus far is a brief article from three years ago with some usable facts, and an extremely brief and trivial "article" from last fall. That is nowhere near the amount of coverage that the notability guidelines are looking for. I tried to make an article for this band myself a while back, and I personally could not find much more coverage than what you have provided here. It sat in my sandbox for over two years before I gave up and realized they would probably never meet the guidelines. Fezmar9 (talk) 16:28, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * In the guidelines for inclusion it does not say "an exhaustive list must be provided," it says multiple sources. Multiple means more than 1 and 2 have been provided thus far. If you google "Ice Nine Kills" a large amount of information comes up: Articles, Interviews, Lyrics, Guitar Tabs, Album Reviews, Concert Reviews, etc. etc. etc. look for yourself. Wikipedia defines "Trivial coverage" as either performance dates, release information or track listings, or the publications of contact and booking details in directories, both the Revolver and Alt Press coverage clearly do not fall under any of those. So technically this has passed the guidelines. I'm not interested in your definitions of these words, you told us to examine the wikipedia guidelines and that's what I have done. Infact, I'm quoting DIRECTLY from the guidelines. Do you have a personal vendetta against this band? You still have not responded to the comments of other bands like A Loss For Words and Curl Up and Die being inclusion worthy...this looks like a case of selective persecution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.36.67 (talk) 16:43, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I also just discovered that this past fall/winter they had a 2 page feature/interview in Substream Music Press issue #21, a magazine that is sold in Barnes and Noble, Borders Books, and many other book stores across the country. But I'm sure you'll find a way to discredit this: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:VJIk-SdL2O8J:www.substreammusicpress.com/Current-Issue/issue-21-featuring-asking-alexandria.html+ice+nine+kills+substream+magazine&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.36.67 (talk) 16:58, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * They were also featured in a full page interview in AMP magazine no. 35. This magazine is also sold all over the country at places like Barnes and Noble and Borders. You'll notice they even list Ice Nine Kills right on the cover of the magazine: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.assault.it/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/amp_magazine_rise_against.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.assault.it/2008/12/04/assault-featured-in-amp-magazine/&usg=__la8xM4y0JpkS0NKjLkQxFZTb__I=&h=770&w=589&sz=169&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=mX3Ucz_R8QqC1M:&tbnh=144&tbnw=136&ei=SwjtTYPLHIPMgQfmhp3ZCQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3DAmp%2Bmagazine%2Brise%2Bagainst%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1191%26bih%3D583%26gbv%3D2%26tbm%3Disch&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=136&vpy=57&dur=8&hovh=257&hovw=196&tx=123&ty=136&page=1&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&biw=1191&bih=583 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.36.67 (talk) 17:07, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd like to also point out that ofcourse "The one sentence mention by Walker of the band Three Blind Mice in a biography of Bill Clinton," would be considered trivial coverage of that band. The main reason being that the article was not about the band Three Blind Mice but about a former president. The random inclusion of a band in an unrelated article is trivial. However, The article in Revolver about Ice Nine Kills was under the title "One more band you should know about."
 * Due to the current length of this discussion, I have responded to a lot of your questions, comments and misinterpretations of guidelines and policies on your talk page. I must say that I'm a little impressed by your findings of these two magazine articles. However, based on the links you have provided alone, I have no reason to believe these articles are features. Some magazines just list bands to fill up space on their covers. For example, the latest issue of Decibel lists Melvins in a large font across the top. However, once you flip to the article, it's only the lead singer giving commentary on various songs and has nothing to do with Melvins. I'd like to email these publications to verify that these are in fact features. If they are, then Ice Nine Kills would definitely satisfy the notability criteria. Fezmar9 (talk) 14:11, 7 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  — • Gene93k (talk) 23:56, 6 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep. I think that this page may have potential to be notable enough for keeping. They are signed to a label with a Wikipedia article, and have had one album released through it, while the other one was independently released. I know that that alone doesn't meet Wikipedia notability guidelines (because it takes two non-independent albums), but I'd like to point out about Dishdogz that the notability guidelines state with rule ten that a notable band "has performed music for a work of media that is notable, e.g. a theme for a network television show, performance in a television show or notable film". I don't find this article to be worth deleting. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 04:09, 8 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Summary of the above discussion. It's long and messy, so here's the abbreviated version: Article was nominated for deletion due to lack of significant coverage from reliable sources. Two magazine articles from Revolver and Alternative Press were presented, but deemed too short and trivial to establish notability. Two new feature-length magazine articles were then presented from AMP and Substream, but only in the form of a link to the album cover. Based on my background knowledge of: magazines in general, the links provided for the articles, and the discussion with the IP, I was somewhat justified in believing these could be just as trivial as the first two articles presented. I emailed both publications to confirm they were features, and Substream (but not AMP) has since gotten back to me with a confirmation. So where this discussion now lies is on whether or not the articles from AMP and Substream demonstrate sufficient notability. Fezmar9 (talk) 16:43, 11 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Deciding Factor. Well since Substream Magazine has confirmed it was a feature, as long as AMP confirms the same, I think the discussion should then be over and the article should be kept. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.36.67 (talk) 19:21, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 17:39, 14 June 2011 (UTC)




 * Strong Keep From what i can gather from above, there have been multiple people who agree it meets the guidelines for inclusion and only one person who is unsure. The band has been included in notable publications such as Revolver Magazine and Alternative press, and although these mentions could possibly be construed as "trivial, " 2 other publications with features on the band have been found. Those additional magazines being Substream and AMP who feature the bands name on the cover of the magazine and are sold all over the US in books stores such as Barnes and Noble and Borders. -oldSCHOOL — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.36.67 (talk) 18:02, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You are only allowed to submit one vote per discussion. Fezmar9 (talk) 19:29, 16 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Strong keep In reading the arguments of the users above, I must agree with the majority on this decision. I recognize this band's page has been deleted multiple times in the past; however, the fan base of the band has expanded in the last 2 years.  It seems the only person strongly opposed to the band's inclusion is Fezmar9 (talk).  With that being said, the band should be considered notable due to their appearances across the country and holding some 30,715 fans on facebook.  Numerous other bands that hold pages on Wikipedia have many fewer fans on facebook yet are not spuriously accused of insignificance by Wikipedia users that reject a band for its genre, not its relevance. Moreover, the revolver magazine reference is important enough to assure the band's significance.  68.14.128.70 (talk) 21:03, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.