Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Independent cities of Germany


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   redirect to Independent city. &mdash; Coffee //  have a cup  //  beans  // 02:08, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Independent cities of Germany

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Remainder of a previous content move (13 January 2013). Remaining content does not form a coherent, suitable topic. GermanJoe (talk) 19:54, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Delete as nominator - all information in this article is already present (in better and more understandable detail) in related articles, namely Districts of Germany and States of Germany. The article in its current form mixes 3 distinct definitions of "indepedent city" (an inaccurate English translation), "city state" (German "Stadtstaat") and "urban district", but fails to explain any of those definitions. The present map doesn't illustrate any of those definitions. The article is misleading and largely redundant. GermanJoe (talk) 20:20, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep. The existence of de:Kreisfreie Stadt suggests that our article is simply underdeveloped. Please echo me if you want to discuss this. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 20:31, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I see your point, but the German article is a bad example to compare. It's overly detailed, largely unsourced and has a confusing structure (confusing even for native Germans, and probably much more for non-Germans). The fragmentation of a broad topic (districts) in several sub-articles would only make sense, when the split helps to clarify and organize the current information. But the current structure uses misleading definitions and fails to offer basic information in a clear and concise way. Additions of content can be done in one of the 3-4 remaining articles about Germany's political structure. The current flaws are too basic to fix with editorial polishing, especially when no editor has done significant work on that article in the last 10 years (aside from some occasional minor tweaks). GermanJoe (talk) 19:46, 22 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep but rename to District-free cities of Germany, which is what these are (we are translating "kreis" as "district" here. These are in some sense successors to Free Cities of Germany. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 01:55, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I am not sure, but I think that "District-free cities" would be a, what's-it-called, a neologism? We don't want to create a new term that is not actually used.  "District-free", in English, implies there is no district, when in fact there is one;  maybe the German phrase does not imply that, and a different translation should be found.   If "Kreisfreie Stadt" is the actual German phrase, and what are possible translations for it?  If it is meant as a conjunction of a "District"  and a "free state", that is quite different than a conjunction of "District-free" and "state".  I would hope that sources in English have used translations, one of which we could use, rather than composing a new one. -- do  ncr  am  20:19, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:40, 4 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Redirect (was Keep, tentatively), and develop. Discuss rename/move at article Talk page, sure, but seems like a reasonable topic.  Some more sourcing would help.  Complaints in the nom seem to be solveable by editing, do not seem like deletion reasons.  Seeing the AFD, I expected the article to be a list-article, listing the cities.  Obviously, should add a section and list the 107 members of this set, why not? -- do  ncr  am  04:14, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The list of "urban districts" was part of this article, but has been merged in 2013 into List of German districts (I assume, for better maintenance and a complete overview of all districts). This remaining article stub is a sub-topic of Districts of Germany (covering all district types) - missing information could be just as well developed in the main article. The article exists since 2004 and still contains only redundant summaries from other articles, but no unique new information. GermanJoe (talk) 04:41, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Okay perhaps this could be resolved by redirect to an appropriate article. But the List of German districts list-article is currently inadequate.  It's intro describes "rural" districts and "urban" districts, and states "the latter are "cities that constitute a district in their own right."  Surely each of the rural districts also are districts in their own right.  And is "rural" the right translation?  Surely there are cities that are not themselves districts, so they're either in "rural" ones (and "rural" is a misnomer) or they're in "urban" districts along with other cities and towns in the same urban district.  Is rural really the appropriate translation?  And if so, then the fact of it being a misnomer should be clarified.  And is it really asserted that every "urban" district is exactly one city, not multiple city or town entities?  The German districts article is a bit better, but I would still have questions there.  If you understand the topic properly and have sources, could you edit at those article(s) and make clear which article and section you'd propose for a redirect target?  Also I wonder if Carlossuarez's suggestion that these are in some way successors to Free Cities of Germany could be worked into the text, if that is appropriate.  I may try editing at the list and German districts articles but my edits would need to be reviewed/fixed by someone more knowledgeable. -- do  ncr  am  20:11, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Here is an English language link, page 48-49, that supports the usage of "urban" and "rural" district. The "official" statistical list of all German districts can be seen at this DESTATIS Excel list and is used as source for Germany and also for the list article (afaik). It shows, that even the main German statistical office throws both district types together and treats them as analogous entities. That's why I'd prefer a single article approach to cover this topic - the section Districts_of_Germany) (as possible redirect target) already does an OK job to list the main categories, but still could be a bit clearer and more detailed. GermanJoe (talk) 21:04, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I see that English language link does support translating "Landkreis" to "rural district" and "Stadtkreis" to "urban district".
 * About "Kreisfreie Stadt" it states "As this is exactly the same level as a Stadtkreis, the translation ‘urban district’ will generally be satisfactory. Should it be necessary to distinguish between this term and a Stadtkreis, use ‘town constituting a district in its own right’." That leaves open the possibility, it makes the suggestion, that there IS a slight distinction between "Kreisfreie stadt" type of urban districts, vs. other urban districts, not but i am not sure what to make of that.  Are there any urban districts that have more than one municipal entity>  Or are they all like a U.S. Consolidated city-county?
 * I also see Google translate giving "landkreis" to "county", "stadtkreis" to "stadkreis", and "Kreisfreie stadt" to "independent city".
 * In English, "consolidated city-county" is very clear in its meaning, and I sorta think it would be the best translation for "Kreisfreie stadt" but the Wikipedia article about it only covers its application to U.S. In the articles, it would help to give as analogies, at least, "county" and "consolidated city-county" for "rural district" and "urban district".  (Addition: Although there is even a bit more complication in the U.S.: see Independent_city.)
 * And the Wikipedia article independent city gives "county-free city" as a suggestion. For Germany, "different states have the kreisfreie Stadt (literally, "County-Free City") administrative division. The division is named Stadtkreis ("Urban County") in Baden-Württemberg.  / Examples of German independent cities are: Stuttgart, Cologne (Köln), Frankfurt (Frankfurt am Main) ....[more] ... Münster.  Additionally, the German city-states of Berlin and Hamburg function as federal states. The city-state Free [?? sic] Hanseatic City of Bremen consists solely of the cities of Bremen and Bremerhaven (which was originally founded as an ocean port for the city of Bremen)." (bolding emphasis added by me).  That last is an example of a county that consists of 2 cities/municipalities, i guess?  Should be mentioned.
 * I think it's best to describe the two as "counties" and "consolidated city-counties", at least by analogy to the U.S. applications of the terms. (Addition: Although there is even a bit more complication in the U.S.: see Independent_city.)
 * Assuming that Districts_of_Germany can be refined a bit, it should work as redirect target, right? So I change my "vote" to redirect, probably to that target.  I hope this is reasonable. -- do  ncr  am  22:00, 4 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment. Notwithstanding what i just wrote, just above, about accepting redirect to Districts of Germany, wouldn't it be better to redirect to Independent city? Either way, the AFD outcome would be "Redirect".  And either way, all of at least Districts of Germany and the list-article and the Independent city article should be edited/updated a bit. I think redirecting to Independent city#Germany is a little bit better. -- do  ncr  am  22:13, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd say a full, detailed coverage should be in Districts of Germany ( link changed to show non-redirected target article ) and an improved, but succinct summary in Independent city, but YMMV. GermanJoe (talk) 22:54, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
 * Redirect would work for me as well instead of a full delete (sorry, if I mixed up the processes - it is my first full AfD). I would make sure, the current content (atleast the useable parts) are transferred to suitable target articles of course. GermanJoe (talk) 22:54, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Independent city, using template R to section, since that section explains and contains the list. --Boson (talk) 11:48, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment - after copying the urban population estimate (for 2011) to Districts of Germany, the article's entire content is redundant in other articles, and can be blanked and redirected (to whatever target is deemed best). I also cleaned up the linking between the various related articles a bit (some wrong redirects, loop links, old labels and similar). GermanJoe (talk) 20:10, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mr. Guye (talk) 02:31, 12 February 2015 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spirit of Eagle (talk) 03:53, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment - as Independent City was suggested as redirect target: there is currently a parallel discussion at Articles for deletion/Independent city about the viability of this second city article. Just noting here as related topic. GermanJoe (talk) 04:21, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.