Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Indian Lakes Estates, California (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. The Wordsmith Talk to me 03:22, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Indian Lakes Estates, California
AfDs for this article:


 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Ineligible for PROD due to previous AfD. This location seems to be a subdivision; only passing mentions in ads and legal notices were found. No secondary coverage at all. Without legal recognition this site fails WP:GEOLAND and without secondary coverage it fails WP:GNG. This is another of the many low-effort stubs, sourced only to GNIS (which does not establish notability), created by the user Carlossuarez46 during a brief mass-creation spree in 2009. WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 01:10, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Geography and California. WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 01:10, 30 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete - non-notable. My search found nothing to establish notability. 2 government documents refer to Indian Lakes Estates as a "subdivision", confirming WeirdNAnnoyed's assessment:, . -- A. B. (talk • contribs •  global count)  03:33, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I found a third that says the same. Uncle G (talk) 04:37, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete Should have been deleted last time. Reywas92Talk 03:41, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The GNIS record for this doesn't pass verification, and the only source for this is false. The record reads "Occidental College. Accessed from classic.oxy.edu on 15 December 2005".  Noting that classic.oxy.edu just redirects to www.oxy.edu, if we go to  there is not a mention of "Indian Lakes Estates" there.  I have brought this up at Reliable sources/Noticeboard.  We seem to have a bunch of things that someone put into the GNIS saying them to be from Occidental College that fail verification against the WWW site that they are purported to come from. Looking around, I find a commercial map from 1966 showing that this is the name of a small housing development which the map says is in Coarsegold, California, and that latter is the actual name of the place.  Which agrees with where the Chukchansi Gold Resort & Casino seems to think that it itself is, despite what was argued in the prior AFD discussion.  Sadly, the prior AFD discussion also argued that this must be a distinct place because From Indian Lakes is named after it.  But the source in that article itself says "in a small mountain community just outside Yosemite National Park", and doesn't actually support what our article says. Coarsegold, California is "a small mountain community just outside Yosemite National Park".  The penultimate nail in the coffin is that a Fresno State College document from 1972 by R. R. Mead turns up in a search, listing this as a subdivision of "Coarsegold South".  This is exactly the "just suburban neighborhood" mentioned in the prior AFD discussion.  The final nail in the coffin is that the external hyperlink to Google in the prior AFD discussion turns up only a horse ranch in Nevada, an apartment block, and Pangong Tso (a lake in India!).  Vague handwaves in the direction of Google are not citing sources.  It's incredibly tedious cleaning up GNIS mess at this level, especially in the wake of vague handwave zero research AFD discussion.  Uncle G (talk) 04:37, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep as additional sources verify this is a "real" unincorporated community near Coarsegold of 485 homes (2000 Fresno Bee article says 485; 2016 article says "about 500"). Newspapers.com finds coverage over the years about the Indian Lakes Estates water distribution system and concerns about sharing water and Road 417 with the Chukchansi casino. Pinging for giving up too easily. Cielquiparle (talk) 11:45, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the work you put into finding those news articles. At least now the article says something.  Still, those references are just trivial news reports on mundane community matters that happen in every settlement of any size: Someone is worried about traffic.  Not everyone wants the new business in town.  None of it really describes the community in any meaningful sense.  Perhaps I'm splitting hairs but I think WP:NOTNEWS applies here.WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 15:17, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Trivial to you, perhaps, but significant enough to merit dedicated coverage over a WP:SUSTAINED period of time, and I would hardly call development of a casino next door as WP:ROUTINE. Also WP:NOTNEWS applies to current events and does not apply here. Maybe you've been staring at these @Carlossuarez46 stubs too much – happens to the best of us. I suggest slowing down and/or getting more cross-training in other parts of Wikipedia. Cielquiparle (talk) 15:36, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The development of a casino next door is most definately routine coverage. 😎😎PaulGamerBoy360😎😎 (talk) 20:06, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment Going to make it noted that this is not its own unincorporated community, but rather a neighborhood fully-within the Coarsegold CDP. Don't know if that makes it any less notable or not, but maybe the article for it could somehow be merged into the Coarsegold article, if so. Waddles 🗩 🖉 20:00, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
 * As of 2003, Indian Lakes Estates was an unincorporated community per Fresno Bee. When did it become part of Coarsegold CDP? Cielquiparle (talk) 21:06, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
 * According to this census map, Indian Lakes Estates does NOT appear to be part of Coarsegold CDP (14288), but rather, lying outside of it. (At first I thought it was considered part of T2775 or Picayune RNIA T2775 (and maybe it is)...but this map has all the streets of Indian Lakes Estates lying slightly outside of that, too (where all the letters are). @Uncle G Cielquiparle (talk) 06:52, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep, per the coverage found and expansion work by Cielquiparle. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:08, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting rather than closing this as No consensus (yet). I do want to applaud editor participating in these location/place discussions whatever your stance is, you do much more research into the article subject than I see in most AFDs. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 07:16, 7 December 2023 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 10:42, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * ●Delete- I am going to have to agree with WeirdNAnnoyed, the coverage found is either non-sigcov, or just news. 😎😎PaulGamerBoy360😎😎 (talk) 14:55, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * How many towns and community articles on Wikipedia have information about their relations with local Native American tribes? Not many. It's a fairly unique story. Cielquiparle (talk) 19:42, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Keep or merge to Coarsegold, California. I'm going to approach this from a ruthlessly logical perspective. Either this is what we colloquially know as a "subdivision" and it's part of another legally recognized sub-county-level place, such as Coarsegold and can be merged in part; or the term "subdivision" is being used by sources in a different way (perhaps as a stand-in for "administrative subdivision" or "political subdivision"?), and this is a legally recognized unincorporated community and should be kept by WP:POPULATED. &mdash;siro&chi;o 18:20, 14 December 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.