Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Indian Television Academy Awards


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus on the main article, but merge the spinoffs to the main. King of &hearts;   &diams;   &clubs;  &spades; 16:32, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Indian Television Academy Awards

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  Stats )

Also nominated: I hereby submit for the community's consideration Indian Television Academy Awards and all its above-mentioned associated articles. The creator and primary contributor to all of these articles is a single user and his many sockpuppets, nearly all of which have been banned for disruptive editing and persistent copyright violations. The persistence with which he spams Wikipedia with links to these often-plagiarized award articles, nearly all of which lack non-primary sourcing and assertions of notability, leads me to believe that they are unencyclopedic, and probably added to Wikipedia for purely promotional purposes. Only the main article, Indian Television Academy Awards, makes any assertions of notibility, though they're couched in highly promotional language (e.g., "The ITA launced The ITA School of Performing Arts in Mumbai and Del NCR-Noida in Oct 2011.. It is the only one of its kind in India to have all faculties under one roof-singing.dancing.singing.personality enhancement and modelling.. The ITA plans to open such schools all over the country in the coming years.,For information log on to www.itaspa.in") and the whole article is largely plagiarized from press releases and primary sources.

Certainly sources exist for the main award ceremony, but as someone without an intimate knowledge of Indian media it's difficult to identify which of them, if any, constitute reliable and independent press coverage (i.e., from media sources unrelated to companies organizing or sponsoring the awards, and from media sources which aren't simply reprinting press releases and programme guides). Even if the award ceremony in general is found to be notable, it would be helpful to consider whether the individual awards are notable in and of themselves and therefore worthy of separate articles. Many articles for individual awards not listed here have already been speedily deleted. Psychonaut (talk) 21:57, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 02:26, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 02:26, 29 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment: Amongst heaps of essays written on Wikipedia i am surprised that there isn't any about awards. Well... i assume they are not considered something different and hence existence of articles on them should be simply based on WP:GNG. The Indian Television Academy that was established probably in 2006 or before felicitates people working in Hindi-language television industry including various TV channels. It does not consider regional-language television shows. But this situation is much better than something like STAR Parivaar Awards where the TV channel Star Plus gives awards to shows that are aired on Star Plus itself. (Why do we have that in-house awards article then? That's because you will find many newspapers and articles talking about it. Very good coverage.) Given the case of awards related to Indian television, i find this award notable in this sense that it is given by a third party and has a fair scope. Now considering all the copyvios, promotions and such stuff because of all socks i find individual articles unnecessary. There is no point in increasing our own work of maintaining these articles. There are more socks and SPAs working on Indian TV shows than other regular Wikipedians and it hence becomes difficult to fight with all these incompetent people. §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 11:17, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, much as it would make our job easier, we can't delete an article simply because it happens to attract vandals, plagiarists, or editors with COI issues. What we need to do in this discussion is to establish whether there are any reliable sources, independent of the awards, which cover them in significant depth.  Since filing this AfD I've had a closer look and haven't found any.  I found a few sources with lots of coverage, but which are clearly owned and operated by the award organizers themselves, or just reprint the organizers' programme guides verbatim.  I also found some entertainment tabloid-style sources which mention individual shows winning certain awards, but these are brief mentions and are more about the recipients themselves than the awards. Can anyone point to at least a couple mainstream news sources which cover the awards in detail and aren't associated with the awards?  If not, then we must assume that the awards are non-notable and/or lack the requisite reliable sources for an encyclopedia article. —Psychonaut (talk) 12:53, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete and salt all I'm not seeing any independent sources. Stuartyeates (talk) 21:29, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Dori ☾Talk ☯ Contribs☽ 00:42, 5 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep and fix the primary topic, and merge the spinouts... over time and through regular editing... and protect the results. We might consider how the US's Academy Awards have grown over time and let this do the same. Behavioral problems with certain editors are best dealt with through education of those editors or through administrative oversite of any copyvio brought in through newcomer's enthusiasms and/or misunderstanding of our policies and guidelines... but not through deletion of the arguably notable topics with which they have dedicated their interest. While the pre-tagged version did not itself offer sources, it would be an error to assert that no independent reliable sources exist, or to ask that we delete and salt a notable topic based upon poor editing or headaches caused by the uninformed.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 22:36, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Michael, you didn't link to any particular sources, but rather to a Google search. Which of the results, specifically, do you feel are both independent and give sufficient coverage of the awards? —Psychonaut (talk) 10:39, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Well the copyvio was apparently created by an unschooled contributor doing a lot of cut-n-paste... but that's addressable. The proffered newslink was in response to the comment "not seeing any independent sources" when in fact they exist for use... even if not in the article. And while the Indian Televsion Academy ( ITA really needs an article itself, just as we have for AMPAS) as a source might be used for simple description of the organization's hiearchy, notability for the Indian Television Academy Awards is found in the awards receiving media recognition since 2001... with the awards being covered in independent sources such as Sify India Today  Indian Television  Media Newsline  The Telegraph  Indian Express  The Hindu  Chandigarh Tribune  and too many more to reasonably list here, showing wide interest in the awards bestowed by the ITA. When they are called "one of the most credible TV Awards widely watched by all Indians and Asians" we would do well to see what we can do to make this poorly written article on a notable topic more suitable for inclusion herein.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 06:14, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Going through those in order: (1) is sourced to IANS, which has PR function according to their website (2)  is sourced to Mail Today which appears to be part of the same conglomerate as TV Today, the main subject of the article according to this. (3)  is published by the people who apparently run this award (4)  is a PR release distribution service. (5)  has only a passing mention of the award. (6)  is a repackaging of quotes from a press release (7)  has only a passing mention of this award (but talks about another award). (7)  is another passing mention. (8)  is odd, the video doesn't work for me, the text has a mangled character set and textual content appears to be a rip off from a forum. In short: no in-depth coverage in independent sources. Stuartyeates (talk) 06:50, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I suppose by that negative analysis, all by-lined "English" coverage of this topic in Indian news media from Sify, India Today, Indian Television,  Media Newsline, The Telegraph (Calcutta), Indian Express, The Hindu, Chandigarh Tribune and the many others found through searches but not listed here, should be disallowed from Wikipedia for WP:V of any facts because of their use of 1) a shotgun approach that covers multiple topics briefly within one article, because 2) their format is almost always tabloid-brief and sensationalistic, and 3) because no matter how it is presented, it represents information they found elsewhere and which then, even if supposedly checked for accuracy before being presented, esentially echoes the information found and echoed in less appropriate sources.  In my not being able to look into the minds of Indian news reporters or their editors, I am unable to determine just how these reporters gained their information or how their editors checked for accuracy before presenting or re-presenting it. Rather than being picked apart afd-by-afd, perhaps they should ALL be taken to WP:RSN.  And, as they do not present their news in the same lengthy or neutral manner as does Washington Post or The New York Times, we could dismiss them and then remove hundreds or thousands of Indian topics supported by such inappropriate Indian news media from Wikiedia entirely... despite an seeming importance to the billions in India.
 * However, and in curbing a Western bias, we might also conclude that news services in other parts of the world simply follow different means of editorial oversite and use a different manner of presentation of facts than do many in the West, and so not judge them by standards more applicable to Western media. We could decide hErE that awards noted in Indian media since 2001 have some arguable importance to the billions which read those poorly written media reports. I would suggest also that we not rely too heavily on English-language coverage for the non-English topics notable to India, and that it would be best to find and defer to translations of the Non-English original coverage.  What would be most helpful here is input from editors able to search for and offer sources in Hindi, Telugu, Assamese, Maithili, Chhattisgarhi, Konkani, Gujarati, Punjabi, Urdu, Santali, Kannada, Malayalam, Meiteilon, Mizo, Oriya, Nepali, Tamil, Kokborok, and others.
 * WikiProject India, your input here is much needed.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 18:29, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * WP:RSN wouldn't help in many cases because most many of these sources are often reliable. When they're not reliable is when they stand with a conflict of interest or are republishing something from someone who is. A very similar situation happens (or used to) in the UK where 'celebraties' with role in one arm of a media conglomerate (BBC, the murdoc empire, etc) would get coverage in other arms of the same conglomerate. Stuartyeates (talk) 20:16, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I understand your opinion and your examples, but WP:RSN is the proper forum to discuss reliability of what a source might offer in context. And again, we should not rely on English-only sources for topics arguably notable to non-English countries. Input from WP:WikiProject India would be most helpful, and input from editors better able to search for, gauge, and offer sources about the ITAA in Hindi, Telugu, Assamese, Maithili, Chhattisgarhi, Konkani, Gujarati, Punjabi, Urdu, Santali, Kannada, Malayalam, Meiteilon, Mizo, Oriya, Nepali, Tamil, Kokborok, etc.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 20:26, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm happy to suspend the AfD while we take this to WP:RSN. None of the sources I've looked at in detail appear to have mentioned the language of the awards. I had assumed that they were held in English, but that may ont be the case. Stuartyeates (talk) 21:58, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you, but there is no need to suspend an AFD in progress. All we need do here is a consensus as to whether or not the primary topic is notable to India and, if kept through consensus that it can be fixed, whether or not the secondary articles should be merged into the primary topic. The nominator himself notes that the primary awards ceremony is itelf sourcable, though the addressable issue of tone and copyvio set by the unschooled creator remains. Both the nominator and myself seek input from editors better able to offer non-English sources for this awards event that has existed since 2001. It was your "delete and salt all" !vote that had me consider that not everything notable happens only in countries where English is the primary language, and notable to India and through non-English sources is just fine for us.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 22:45, 10 September 2012 (UTC)


 * (a) The salt part of my !vote was based entirely on the repeated copyright and user behaviour issues. If the article is kept, in should be locked, for the same reasons. (b) If there are a bulk of sources in a non-English language I would advocate writing a wikipedia article in that language wikipedia, I have a history of voting keep for borderline articles based on the existance of an article in an appropiate foreign language. Personally I'm sceptical in this case, because in other cases where this is true (particlarly in former soviet states and pacific cultures) many of the poor-quality English-language sources are strongly linked to sources in a foreign language (i.e. not necessarily bi-lingual sources but sites which contain many stories / comments / reviews / user-submitted reviews in a forign language or link to sources in a foreign language). (c) none of the videos I'm seeing in relation to this article seem to work for me. That may be related to me being in an odd region. Stuartyeates (talk) 23:41, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Michael, the nominator (that would be me) said the articles were "sourceable" only insofar as there exists media coverage of the awards. I was careful to point out that I could not identify any such coverage which is both independent of the awards and focusses on them in sufficient depth.  So far I'm still not seeing any such sources; Stuartyeates has very helpfully presented an analysis of a number of individual cases, many of which I had already reviewed and dismissed as reliable sources before posting this AfD (and indeed ought to have included in my opening remarks).  There is no need to take the individual sources he lists to WP:RS/N; it's already very clear even to someone unfamiliar with the topic which ones are affiliated with the awards, which ones merely reprint or reformulate the awards' press releases, and which give only passing mentions of the awards.  (Incidentally, I had already asked on WP:RS/N about one of the sources, and nobody seemed to think it was reliable.)  What we need is evidence, not mere assumptions or pointers to unchecked Google results, that reliable sources for the awards actually exist. —Psychonaut (talk) 16:11, 11 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I would suggest we not be so ready to judge this based solely upon limited English-language coverage for a non-English topic quite likely notable to India. These awards were first presented in Mumbai in 2001.  I would be quite suprised if there was absolutely no non-English coverage, and would expect that there would actually be more non-English than not. Per WP:CSB, it would be best to defer to translations of more in-depth non-English coverage.  And yes it's on the Indian delsort... but we really need to be more proactive in getting the word out to its active sub-projects. If wishing to curb an unintentional systemic bias, we would liklely need a re-listing or two as we alert India-related projects to seek input from editors more able to search for and offer sources in Hindi, Telugu, Assamese, Maithili, Chhattisgarhi, Konkani, Gujarati, Punjabi, Urdu, Santali, Kannada, Malayalam, Meiteilon, Mizo, Oriya, Nepali, Tamil, Kokborok, and others. I have no familiarity with those languages. Others do. We need far more input from those editors in India and/or familiar with Indian media, before tossing this one. WikiProject India's input would be most helpful in making an informed decision. Let's reach out. 00:02, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Note that these have been listed on WikiProject_India/Article_alerts for some time. I'm not sure how well patrolled that is. Stuartyeates (talk) 00:26, 12 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I'd like to propose that (should some or all of these be deleted) any salting of the topic should be lifted if foriegn-language versions of these pages be created. Stuartyeates (talk) 00:26, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Regarding the doubt previously raised about the language of the awards, it appears from clips available online that they are held primarily in English. The presenters occasionally exchange brief banter in Hindi, and the live entertainment (song and dance numbers) are in the original languages, but the introductions and presentation of the nominees and awards themselves are in spoken and written English.  This is in keeping with AnimeshKulkarni's characterization of the awards as intended for a country-wide rather than regional audience; it can be assumed that most Indian viewers will understand English, even if only as a second language.  This also means that we should expect coverage of the awards in English-language media.  However, a search of the Times of India, India's (and indeed the world's) most widely read English-language newspaper, doesn't turn up any independent in-depth coverage. —Psychonaut (talk) 07:24, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Mr. Stradivarius  (have a chat) 09:39, 14 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Relisting comment. I agree that more input from editors from WikiProject India would be very useful here. — Mr. Stradivarius  (have a chat) 09:40, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep: Though it critically lacks major support from any WP:RS, an analysis of the trivia fetched from g-search and highbeam search points out that the subject, ITA Awards, has good encyclopedic notability. The associated articles listed above should be merged with the main one and the other issues, such as copyvio, sourcing, low quality, should be dealt separately.  AshLey  Msg 11:33, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Could you please identify which specific articles are reliable sources establishing the notability of the awards, rather than just handwaving the argument with a link to unannotated search results? Someone already tried this upthread, and a careful analysis of the individual search results revealed that none of them were reliable sources.  Also, given that notability is not inherited, how do your search results for "Indian Television Academy" have any bearing on the notability of the awards they bestow?  No one here has asserted that the Indian Television Academy is non-notable; what we are trying to do is to establish whether their awards are. —Psychonaut (talk) 11:51, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I didn't mean inheritance; the search results for ITA is a super set of ITA awards too. Though third party references are fewer than what I thought earlier, I hope, these sources would help to hint on its notability: Hindustan Times, Western Mail, Best Media.  AshLey  Msg 07:23, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Merge and Keep After going through all arguments above, I suggest we merge all of these small articles into one main article, remove unsources material and develop a bare bones article on the topic. Yes, I agree with the point given above that the coverage of these awards could be suspect and I too have not found any third party coverage by a reliable source. Most publicity, like the Murdoch example is carried out by one arm of the media empire for the other or the winners declaring themselves on their books, magazines etc. There arent that many channels and I guess they can't stop these awards once everybody has been awarded. But, you will still get lot of hits on google books and news for the same reasons given above. So, we still have reasons for an article but with extreme prejudive towards WP:NPOV. I have found a lot of secondary reference to the subject. The problem here is that the awards are quite new. Found some reference here with regards to Derrick o Brien . Found a reference here about currrent affairs of 2007 and some more about Aaj Tak . Also found a mention here in the career profile of Sanjeev Kapoor . Also found secondary coverage regarding some television serials . Maybe these articles need to be developed further but the topic is encyclopedic -Wikishagnik 06:40, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete all - The topic seems to meet WP:GNG on the low end, so someone can recreate it, but there's no reason to fix multiple topics with such problems. A first mention of Indian television academy awards is Business Line November 20, 2001. The ITA news articles initially are about who won rather than the ITA itself, but some of that info would be good in an ITA Wikipedia article. Then the news articles start to cover the ITA topic somewhat.. I did run across a news article for which Google noted, "This site may harm your computer," so the topic has some external issues. I don't see any reason to keep the current material in Wikipedia, but I have no objection to someone recreating the topic using reliable source material. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 04:23, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I do not believe that http://www.presstrust.com/ is a reliable source, but I'm happy to take it to Reliable sources/Noticeboard if anyone believes it is. Stuartyeates (talk) 04:57, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, the presstrust.com story originated from Web Newswire in India. I couldn't get the Web Newswire URL to come up so I linked to the presstrust copy so people could read the article. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 03:00, 26 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Merge seems to be a good way out for a marginally notable group of articles. Bearian (talk) 16:54, 26 September 2012 (UTC)