Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Indus Valley Institute of Art and Architecture


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was keep. Y.Ichiro (会話) 04:31, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Indus Valley Institute of Art and Architecture


questionably notible school, violates several of the proposed criteria in the WP:SCHOOLcriteria, parts read like advert SkierRMH 10:29, 16 November 2006 (UTC) *Weak delete I am unable to find non-trivial independent sources nor any claims of notability (and no, to those above, being accredited is not a claim of notability any more than being given citizenship is a claim of notability for WP:BIO). This is only a weak delete because there may be a language issue here that is preventing me from fidning more sources. However, since this is listed in the Pakistan related deletions this will change to a full delete if sources aren't given in the next few days. JoshuaZ 20:26, 18 November 2006 (UTC) Changing to very weak keep per discussion below with JJay. JoshuaZ 04:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete, can't find any non-trivial coverage of this at all, and none is cited within the article. Very promotional tone to article. Don't see anything that verifiably passes it on the WP:SCHOOL criteria-and those are far, far too loose to begin with! Seraphimblade 12:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete, advertisement, no assertion of notability. --Ter e nce Ong (C 12:40, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. It is a postsecondary institution, and was given degree-granting authority by the government of Pakistan. On that basis, it appears to be notable. --TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs) 13:15, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep Its a bona fide college. scope_creep 14:26, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep as above but coudl use a little bit of expansion. SYSS Mouse 16:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep Colleges are typically notable and just because it's from a developing country doesn't mean it doesn't deserve an article. Whether or not it needs to be cleaned up is not an issue for AfD. --The Way 10:20, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Pakistan-related deletions.   -- Mereda 16:27, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 *  Strong KeepAppears to be highly notable. Nileena joseph (Talk 16:33, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Any reason for that impression? JoshuaZ 20:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Currently, though I am opposed to it, there is a long-standing precedent that we keep all high school articles. Given this, there is also a precedent, this one I do agree with, that virtually all colleges, particularly accredited ones, get articles.  As such, this article should remain; we can't have a general policy of keeping all American colleges and then go ahead and start deleting Indian ones.  In my opinion, consistency is very important in these matters. --The Way 21:56, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Precedent isn't always something that should be followed and I'm not sure that this has anything to do with American v. non-American. If there are American colleges that are similarly non-notable then one should consider AfDing them just the same. JoshuaZ 23:27, 18 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep. Have we gotten to the point where the mania to delete school articles means that Universities are now fair game, particularly when they are located in poor third world or muslim countries? Is cultural bias the new buzzword at wikipedia? Not as far as I am concerned. This is the third ranked art & architecture university in Pakistan, - the sixth biggest country in the world by population. It fully qualifies for inclusion based on the Wp:Schools, not that it matters since that's just a proposed guideline (and not too long ago, those non-existent guidelines were being frequently cited as grounds for disqualifying "keep" arguments). For those who want to learn more about the school, google is a good start. For example, Jamiluddin Aali spoke at the 2005 graduation, when 87 degrees were awarded . The school has been discussed in the Hindu magazine  or architecture & culture magazine  and I'm sure there are a lot more sources if I spent more than 5 minutes searching. Let's not send a message that art, architecture and education in Pakistan does not matter to the English wikipedia. Finally, I hope no one takes up JoshuaZ's suggestion to start "AFDing" American colleges (which would just further strain wikipedia's limited resources in more futile debate). Instead, I would encourage people to improve/expand articles on institutions of higher education worldwide as we strive for comprehensive coverge that goes beyond the elitist US/UK Unis and meets the needs/interest of our global reader base. --JJay 03:50, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm not going to address the claims of "mania to delete" "cultural bias", "elitism" or implications about some sort of anti-muslim sentiment since they are irrelevant to the matter at hand. The references you gave are not obviously non-trivial. The article in the Hindu has less than a paragraph about the school and the other article has little useful information for a school article. If you think that a useful article can be salvaged from those references add them to the article and then tell us. In any event, I still don't see this school as even meeting the primary criterion of WP:SCHOOLS let alone meeting the stricter one of WP:SCHOOLS3 or any other more restrictive set. JoshuaZ 03:58, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Address what you want to address, but if you don't believe that being the third ranked architecture university in Pakistan is significant, than, as per your suggestion, you should start AfDing whole boatloads of American universities. I think the article is highly "useful" in its present state and can only improve from here. --JJay 04:05, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It may be the third ranked. Its also the bottom ranked on that list. It appears that there are only three in all of Pakistan. Being the bottom ranked might be notable for its own reasons, but let's not pretend that being third ranked her is somehow saying anything good about the school. JoshuaZ 04:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * That is exactly what I'm pretending. I'll further go out on a limb and pretend that, for a start, we should have articles on all the top ranked universities in every country in the world - even if the country in question only has one university. You are of course entitled to pretend the opposite. --JJay 04:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm not convinced that a single university in a country would be necessarily notable by itself given that even countries themselves are not inherently notable. Nevertheless, this enough to make me switch to very weak keep for now. I need to think about this case in more detail. Again, if there are any language issues here, I welcome users who are more familiar with Pakistan helping find sources. JoshuaZ 04:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I welcome your change of position on IVS Pakistan. However, I am intrigued by your remark "that even countries themselves are not inherently notable". Assuming we are talking about countries on the planet Earth, I would have thought that a presence on the world atlas would be sufficient, or a UN seat, or participation at the Olympic Games. I'm also sure the inhabitants of those countries would be surprised to learn that, according to wikipedia, they live in a "non-notable" state, presumably with a non-notable history, culture, language, etc. Would you be so kind as to point me to the "non-notable" countries currently included at wikipedia (so that I might contribute to helping to establish their "notability"), or point me to country articles that have been deleted for 'non notability" (so that I might help fill the gaping hole in our coverage). Please enlighten me on your thinking here.--JJay 04:46, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep, per JJay's first post. bbx 11:58, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.